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re: Explain the whole Conan-Leno feud to me
Posted on 1/14/10 at 10:18 am to Indiana Tiger
Posted on 1/14/10 at 10:18 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
If you can't do the job with the imposed constraints that everyone else lived with successfully, then go somewhere else.
I'm not sure that makes sense.
1
Posted on 1/14/10 at 10:36 am to VOR
quote:
quote:
If you can't do the job with the imposed constraints that everyone else lived with successfully, then go somewhere else.
quote:
I'm not sure that makes sense.
It doesn't. When Carson retired he disappeared. Leno didn't have to contend with Carson appearing on the same network as his prime lead-in. Carson and Leno had to deal with competition on other networks. Conan had to deal with that, plus competition on his own network.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 10:52 am to VOR
VOR,
A couple of quotes from my posts:
Don't know how to make my position clearer. Just because I believe that both Conan and Leno share some blame doesn't invalidate that.
I think he's starting to get whiny. We'll just have to disagree on this one. I also don't disagree with your other point that he is justifiably upset, but he shouldn't be going after Leno. NBC absolutely. Leno didn't go after Conan when NBC made their choice because he realized that it was NBC's choice.
While not in reply to me:
Another quote in case you were thinking of me:
Your last reply to me:
Probably because of another thread suggesting/implying that Conan was greatly constrained from a sort of censorship perspective (e.g. he couldn't use the same material like the masturbating bear), I thought the post I was replying to was referring to these kinds of imposed limits. The point being that Conan would have the same constraints in this regard as Leno. If the poster I was replying to meant broader limits (like the low lead in ratings) then it is not the same.
quote:
You also fail to demonstrate a knowledge of the late night television. NBC has handled every decision horribly since Carson decided to retire. Your assertion that O'Brien somehow held ultimate sway over NBC is not well founded. The execs at NBC were trying to have it both ways.
A couple of quotes from my posts:
quote:
NBC made some horrible decisions.
However, NBC is the decider and asset owner here and has ultimate responsibility.
Don't know how to make my position clearer. Just because I believe that both Conan and Leno share some blame doesn't invalidate that.
quote:
And O'Brien is not particularly "whiny". He relied, perhaps foolishly, on NBC to give his show a fair shot. He is justifiably upset that he and his staff made a substantial personal investment in order to get the gig, and now 7 months later the whole thing is about to go into the crapper. Seven months is not enough time to judge whether the show will find its audience and produce ratings.
I think he's starting to get whiny. We'll just have to disagree on this one. I also don't disagree with your other point that he is justifiably upset, but he shouldn't be going after Leno. NBC absolutely. Leno didn't go after Conan when NBC made their choice because he realized that it was NBC's choice.
While not in reply to me:
quote:
This. Leno is very, very shrewd and manipulative. He is not totally the nice guy that some seem to think.
Another quote in case you were thinking of me:
quote:
Everyone (including Conan) has dirty hands in this.
Your last reply to me:
quote:
I'm not sure that makes sense.
Probably because of another thread suggesting/implying that Conan was greatly constrained from a sort of censorship perspective (e.g. he couldn't use the same material like the masturbating bear), I thought the post I was replying to was referring to these kinds of imposed limits. The point being that Conan would have the same constraints in this regard as Leno. If the poster I was replying to meant broader limits (like the low lead in ratings) then it is not the same.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 11:01 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Conan forced NBC to put an end date on Leno.
quote:
This is not Leno's fault. He has every right to work
I agree that this whole fiasco is more NBC's fault than Leno's. He's not even 60 yet, of course he still wants to work. What is Leno's fault though, is his horribly safe, weak, no-balls style of comedy. He appeals to sheep of the lowest common denominator. And instead of trying to maybe raise that, he smirks, nods his ginormous chin, and basks in glow of all their "baaas."
quote:
Conan is starting to sound like a whiney little kid.
This could not be farther from the truth. I think he's handled it very well, actually. I don't see how not bending over and letting NBC frick him in the arse is whining.
quote:
doesn't mean everyone should just roll over and kiss his arse and give him exactly what he wants.
What does this even mean? What sort of unfair demands has he made? I think he wants just 2 things: 1) time to develop an audience, and 2) a decent prime-time lead-in. Leno's ratings have been so hideous that it's greatly affected local news affiliates. So much so that their threats to pull his show is likely what got it canceled. Conan's Tonight Show is at a HUGE disadvantage if nobody is watching NBC from 10-11:30.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 11:28 am to Hot Carl
quote:
Conan forced NBC to put an end date on Leno.
I don't mean literally forced. Conan would have left NBC if he didn't get a fixed transition date just like Muschamp will most likely leave TX when the right opportunity opens up.
quote:
What does this even mean? What sort of unfair demands has he made? I think he wants just 2 things: 1) time to develop an audience, and 2) a decent prime-time lead-in. Leno's ratings have been so hideous that it's greatly affected local news affiliates. So much so that their threats to pull his show is likely what got it canceled. Conan's Tonight Show is at a HUGE disadvantage if nobody is watching NBC from 10-11:30.
WRT to the whining we are just going to have to disagree. We would be arguing in circles forever. But one point should be made. Conan was on air for 3.5 months before Leno's premier. By then his ratings were already in the dumper.
I agree with many of the things you say, but as I said before, NBC is the responsible party here. They should have made a choice between Conan and Jay and let the other go.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 12:56 pm to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Don't know how to make my position clearer. Just because I believe that both Conan and Leno share some blame doesn't invalidate that.
How is any of this Conan's fault? He bypassed many job offers to where he could be paid more money just so he can host his dream job. Leno originally agrees to walk away, but unlike the classy Carson, he decides to come back and bitch about it. So he gets his own show in front of Conan and fricks Conan over, but Conan keeps his trap shut. Leno is a manipulative a-hole who is trying to seem like the victim here, but fortunately most of show business is seeing right through him.
quote:
I think he's starting to get whiny. We'll just have to disagree on this one. I also don't disagree with your other point that he is justifiably upset, but he shouldn't be going after Leno. NBC absolutely. Leno didn't go after Conan when NBC made their choice because he realized that it was NBC's choice.
Conan is the victim here, and Jay is whining about it just as much, if not more than Conan is. The thing is though Jay has a job still while Conan doesn't. And yes he should be going after Leno since Leno fricked him over in the first place, and now he is really fricking him over.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 1:03 pm to OMLandshark
Ok well i think ive pretty much got the idea. Thanks for the insight everyone.
Team Conan!
Team Conan!
Posted on 1/14/10 at 1:45 pm to OMLandshark
A little history lesson. Carson retired from the #1 late night show on his own volition. The competition was between Leno and Letterman to replace the vacant seat, not to overthrow Carson. Leno was essentially forced from the #1 late night show to placate the ambitious Conan; Leno really didn't have a choice. When the time came for Leno to leave the #1 late night show, he really didn't want to retire and he entertained offers from ABC. The fact that the #1 late night show host may take his gig to another network, like Letterman did, scared the shite out of NBC and they offered the prime time gig to keep him.
Bad, bad, decision. Should have let him keep the #1 late night show and let Conan leave, or let Conan have the Tonight Show and let Leno leave, but they didn't.
Now Conan is pissed at NBC and I agree that he has every right to be. But after conspiring with these treacherous numbnuts to throw Leno out so he could get his "rightful dream job," he, and his fanboys, have no justification in going after Leno.
Bad, bad, decision. Should have let him keep the #1 late night show and let Conan leave, or let Conan have the Tonight Show and let Leno leave, but they didn't.
Now Conan is pissed at NBC and I agree that he has every right to be. But after conspiring with these treacherous numbnuts to throw Leno out so he could get his "rightful dream job," he, and his fanboys, have no justification in going after Leno.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 6:28 pm to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Now Conan is pissed at NBC and I agree that he has every right to be. But after conspiring with these treacherous numbnuts to throw Leno out so he could get his "rightful dream job," he, and his fanboys, have no justification in going after Leno.
You're fabricating a ton of history there.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 6:49 pm to am4titansandlsu
quote:
summary: the majority of America doesnt think Conan is funny
Wrong. Conan has a shitty lead in, i.e. Leno.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 7:18 pm to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Leno was essentially forced from the #1 late night show to placate the ambitious Conan; Leno really didn't have a choice.
Not quite. NBC was telling Conan for over a decade that "eventually" he would be the replacement for Leno. 6-7 years ago, Conan started getting offers from other networks for A LOT more money (millions more PER YEAR) than he was currently making. Conan really wanted his dream job though, so was willing to negotiate with NBC to stay there at the later time slot and making less money than he had been getting offered from other networks IF NBC would drop the "eventually" song and dance they had been saying for years and give him a definite date.
Can you blame him for wanting a definite answer? Seriously? What if NBC would have said "eventually" for 15 more years? Conan and his family would have lost out on AT LEAST $30-75 million dollars if that would have happened. He needed a concrete, set time from NBC so he could make the best business decision for him and his family. Thats the only way he could make the decision to either wait for his dream job or jump ship for more money which would benefit his entire family sooner.
And if you think NBC didnt consult Leno 6 years ago when all of this happened, you're crazy. Im almost willing to bet Leno and NBC negotiated and agreed to him stepping down in 6 years. But, when the time came, Leno wasnt ready.
Posted on 1/14/10 at 8:18 pm to TTownTiger
quote:
Not quite. NBC was telling Conan for over a decade that "eventually" he would be the replacement for Leno. 6-7 years ago, Conan started getting offers from other networks for A LOT more money (millions more PER YEAR) than he was currently making. Conan really wanted his dream job though, so was willing to negotiate with NBC to stay there at the later time slot and making less money than he had been getting offered from other networks IF NBC would drop the "eventually" song and dance they had been saying for years and give him a definite date.
Can you blame him for wanting a definite answer? Seriously? What if NBC would have said "eventually" for 15 more years? Conan and his family would have lost out on AT LEAST $30-75 million dollars if that would have happened. He needed a concrete, set time from NBC so he could make the best business decision for him and his family. Thats the only way he could make the decision to either wait for his dream job or jump ship for more money which would benefit his entire family sooner.
Translation: Get rid of Leno; give me the Tonight Show; or I'm leaving. I don't blame him for making this play, but don't make it out to be anything other than what it is--an intentional power play to get rid of Leno.
quote:
And if you think NBC didnt consult Leno 6 years ago when all of this happened, you're crazy. Im almost willing to bet Leno and NBC negotiated and agreed to him stepping down in 6 years. But, when the time came, Leno wasnt ready.
Of course they negotiated, but do you really think they gave Leno much of a choice? If you do, then you must think NBC is giving Conan a plethora of options now. The bottom line is that two people cannot occupy the same chair at the same time. NBC couldn't bring themselves to do what needed to done which was to pick one and let the other go. Now all of them are paying the price.
Posted on 1/15/10 at 8:34 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Of course they negotiated, but do you really think they gave Leno much of a choice? If you do, then you must think NBC is giving Conan a plethora of options now. The bottom line is that two people cannot occupy the same chair at the same time. NBC couldn't bring themselves to do what needed to done which was to pick one and let the other go. Now all of them are paying the price.
First, I'm nowhere close to a Conan "fanboy". I don't watch his show very much. I do think he's got talent, however, and he's much fresher and more interesting than Leno. Frankly, I still think Letterman is a more sophisticated and, in a sense, even edgier host than either Leno or O'Brien.
No doubt, NBC bears ultimate responsibility for this cluster frick. I just thought you seem to give Leno more of a pass than he deserves. Based upon my observations going back to Carson's departure, I find Leno and his people to be . . . I don't know . . . truly Machiavellian.
Finally, this is a huge betrayal of O'Brien (by NBC). I know it's show business, but still a lot of people uprooted their lives back east to make the move to The Tonight Show. And Conan's right. Moving the show to the 12:05/11:05 slot will damage the franchise.
Posted on 1/15/10 at 10:34 am to VOR
I think Conan is coming out of this with sympathy and sounding like gold. You don't think Leno had more power at NBC than Conan?
Basically the summary of this thread:
IndianaTiger=douche
So if Leno gives them a commitment to stay on the Tonight Show, you think NBC tells him to go frick himself?
and now Leno is trying to play out that he is the victim, sounding like the whiny little bitch.
Basically the summary of this thread:
IndianaTiger=douche
quote:
Of course they negotiated, but do you really think they gave Leno much of a choice? If you do, then you must think NBC is giving Conan a plethora of options now. The bottom line is that two people cannot occupy the same chair at the same time. NBC couldn't bring themselves to do what needed to done which was to pick one and let the other go. Now all of them are paying the price.
So if Leno gives them a commitment to stay on the Tonight Show, you think NBC tells him to go frick himself?
and now Leno is trying to play out that he is the victim, sounding like the whiny little bitch.
This post was edited on 1/15/10 at 10:37 am
Posted on 1/15/10 at 10:36 am to TigerBait1127
quote:actually Leno is taking back The Tonight Show and Conan is out of a job.
Leno @ 10:30 didn't work, hes moving to 11:30 for half an hour then Conan @ 12:05, I dont think it has so much to do with Leno v Conan so much as Leno can do whatever he wants and he was getting rocked @ 10:30 so hes moving back to his old time slot with his new format.
edit: LINK
This post was edited on 1/15/10 at 10:39 am
Posted on 1/15/10 at 10:38 am to Acreboy
Conan's going to come out of this with $20 million a year and a better show. He has every right to piss on NBC because he was loyal to them while Leno and NBC were assholes.
Posted on 1/15/10 at 10:43 am to am4titansandlsu
quote:Fixed.
summary: the majority of America doesnt agree on anything.
Everyone has their own opinions. I think Conan is hilarious and love his work from SNL, to the Simpsons, to Late Night, to the Tonight Show. There are always growing pains when Shows change format and new ppl take over.
Posted on 1/15/10 at 11:28 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
NBC was telling Conan for over a decade that "eventually" he would be the replacement for Leno. 6-7 years ago, Conan started getting offers from other networks for A LOT more money (millions more PER YEAR) than he was currently making. Conan really wanted his dream job though, so was willing to negotiate with NBC to stay there at the later time slot and making less money than he had been getting offered from other networks IF NBC would drop the "eventually" song and dance they had been saying for years and give him a definite date.
Can you blame him for wanting a definite answer? Seriously? What if NBC would have said "eventually" for 15 more years? Conan and his family would have lost out on AT LEAST $30-75 million dollars if that would have happened. He needed a concrete, set time from NBC so he could make the best business decision for him and his family. Thats the only way he could make the decision to either wait for his dream job or jump ship for more money which would benefit his entire family sooner.
This
quote:
Of course they negotiated, but do you really think they gave Leno much of a choice?
Yes, if Jay had been honest about it he should have said he loved working on the tonight show and wanted to keep doing it for a long time.
It would have been tough for NBC to swallow since they would have had to lose Conan but ultimately they would have found a decent replacement to follow Jay on the Tonight Show
And certainly NBC experimenting with a 10pm slot talk show at the same time they wanted to introduce a new late night host was a bad gamble. I'm sure NBC was afraid Jay was going to jump ship and compete directly with Conan's new show but the solution they came up with wasn't likely to work
Posted on 1/15/10 at 11:51 am to Acreboy
Well, it appears O'Brien will be free to walk. I doubt any non-compete clause will be enforceable under the circumstances, although I certainly haven't seen his contract.
It will be interesting to see what happens if O'Brien gets a show on Fox or wherever opposite Leno and Letterman. In my view, that will solidify Letterman in the No. 1 spot in terms of ratings, but maybe everyone will make money.
It will be interesting to see what happens if O'Brien gets a show on Fox or wherever opposite Leno and Letterman. In my view, that will solidify Letterman in the No. 1 spot in terms of ratings, but maybe everyone will make money.
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