- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
2
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:45 am to Goose
Belle isn't getting in, I think his vote total fell below the thershold on his 2nd/3rd ballot.
I'm not sure this player gets in the HOF-
.313 career hitter, MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, 3 batting titles & HR title, 230 stolen bases.
I'm not sure this player gets in the HOF-
.313 career hitter, MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, 3 batting titles & HR title, 230 stolen bases.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 8:12 am to Baloo
quote:
If Murphy retires after 10 full seasons like Belle, his career OPS+ would by 130. Belle still has the edge at 144, but I think Murphy's base-running, more difficult position, superior defense, and better intangibles makes up the gap.
Albert Belle isn't a HOF player, we can at least all agree on that but im not buying Dale Murphy.
Murphy's base running was very average. He stole bases at a 70% clip, Belle at 68%. Thats borderline ineffective, especially in the 80's. It added marginal value.
Murphy did play a premium defensive position at CF and I think thats where things get evened out a bit.
Also you can cherry pick his(murphy) avg stats like OPS+ to match up with bell's 10 years then compare his total numbers to Belle's and tack on all the other stats from his total career.
quote:
. I also think OPS+ overrated the "Launching Pad" environment of Atlanta in the 80s. It treats it as if the park was a 1990s run environment. It wasn't. It was better than a lot of 80s parks, but it wasn't in the same universe as Jacob's Field in the 90s.
I'm sorry but I'm gonna trust a number that was created on stats and actual data vs what you believe from casual observations 30 years ago. It is what it is.
Oh and world Series should factor 0.0% into a persons HOF candidacy in baseball.
Belle was one of the games best power hitters but since it was essentially his only tool he needed to do it slightly better. I don't think Murphy or Belle should be in and put there careers on par with each other.
This post was edited on 4/25/13 at 8:14 am
Posted on 4/25/13 at 8:53 am to dukke v
All I know is that when we played them in high school my buddy was pitching to him and he hit the longest home run I have ever seen a high school kid hit. Monstrous blast
Yeah I know csb
Yeah I know csb
Posted on 4/25/13 at 8:57 am to mattz1122
quote:
Would you put Albert Belle in the Hall?
No.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 9:17 am to barry
quote:
Murphy's base running was very average. He stole bases at a 70% clip, Belle at 68%. Thats borderline ineffective, especially in the 80's. It added marginal value.
It added 80 bases. Turn 80 of his career singles into doubles and see what that does. If two guys steal bases at the same rate, and one stole twice as many, unless the total is something like 2 to 4, they added more than marginal value.
quote:
Also you can cherry pick his(murphy) avg stats like OPS+ to match up with bell's 10 years then compare his total numbers to Belle's and tack on all the other stats from his total career.
but I didn't cherry pick OPS+. Someone else brought it up. I pointed out that if you compare the same career lengths, it closes the gap considerably. Belle is being rewarded for not having a decline phase to lower his rate stats while Muprhy is being punished for having a truly awful late career. He'd have a better Hall case had he simply dropped dead at age 31.
quote:
I'm sorry but I'm gonna trust a number that was created on stats and actual data vs what you believe from casual observations 30 years ago. It is what it is.
The park factors used in OPS+ have been a source of contention in the stat community for a long time. Not that Park Factors exist, everyone agrees they do, but what those Factors are. OPS+ is not a perfect stat designed by God. It is a rough tool made by baseball geeks. I like it, but it's not a precise measurement, and treating as such is misusing the tool.
quote:
Belle was one of the games best power hitters but since it was essentially his only tool he needed to do it slightly better.
Which cuts to an old axiom -- players who do one thing great will almost always be overrated while players who excel at no one thing, but do everything well will almost always be underrated. Belle did one thing great. I agree. that is precisely why he is overrated by people. He couldn't do ANYTHING else. Without referencing precise numbers, he's a modern day version of Dick Allen. Only, ya know, Allen played longer, actually won the MVP and Rookie of the Year, had a better career OPS+, and an even better peak. And isn't in the Hall either.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 9:31 am to Baloo
quote:
It added 80 bases. Turn 80 of his career singles into doubles and see what that does. If two guys steal bases at the same rate, and one stole twice as many, unless the total is something like 2 to 4, they added more than marginal value.
A single and a SB is not the same value as a double. He also got thrown out twice as much as Belle. Stealing bases are extremely overrated even when done at a high clip. It doesn't matter if he stole 400 bases at 70% it had a miniscule effect on the game because he got thrown out 30% of the time. Adding an out lowers the avg runs score in an inning way more than advancing from 1st to 2nd.
quote:
but I didn't cherry pick OPS+. Someone else brought it up. I pointed out that if you compare the same career lengths, it closes the gap considerably. Belle is being rewarded for not having a decline phase to lower his rate stats while Murphy is being punished for having a truly awful late career. He'd have a better Hall case had he simply dropped dead at age 31.
He's being punished for a having a bad late career because its part of his career! You cant just ignore those parts. Obviously he he'd have a better case if he dropped dead because everyone would have assumed he wouldn't have sucked that hard, but guess what he did. No one is giving Albert the benefit of a short career, if they did he would be in the hall.
quote:
The park factors used in OPS+ have been a source of contention in the stat community for a long time. Not that Park Factors exist, everyone agrees they do, but what those Factors are. OPS+ is not a perfect stat designed by God. It is a rough tool made by baseball geeks. I like it, but it's not a precise measurement, and treating as such is misusing the tool.
Its understandable, but its still a far superior option to you simply stating an opinion based on hardly anything. No stat is perfect, but its a hell of a lot better than someone saying I think its overestimated because i think so.
quote:
Which cuts to an old axiom -- players who do one thing great will almost always be overrated while players who excel at no one thing, but do everything well will almost always be underrated. Belle did one thing great. I agree. that is precisely why he is overrated by people. He couldn't do ANYTHING else.
Agreed but what he did well is the most important of all baseball skills. Of the 5 tools, hitting for power is more valuable than speed, fielding, arm or hitting for average.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 9:40 am to mattz1122
Kirby Puckett should not be a hall of famer.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 9:45 am to Goose
if only Albert were as nice as Mo Vaughn
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:11 pm to Maximus
Another favorite story bout Albert, tho he was Joey at the time. Playing UGA in a regional on the road, a fan had been riding Joey all game long, using the N word over & over again. Finally, Joey got tired of his shite, tore off a piece of the wooden fence,hopped over the fence & chased the fan out behind the fences. Clown finally got away. Skip suspended him as I recall. One of the longest HR's hit at the old Box, against the weenies, he hit a rocket over the Married Couples dorms in LF. He's never been back to LSU since Skip kicked him off the team prior to going to the CWS.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:29 pm to dukke v
quote:
The MOST dominating 5 years of ANY player in history............
Posted on 4/25/13 at 3:07 pm to mattz1122
quote:
Made five All-Star teams, won five Silver Slugger awards, and was the real 1995 MVP.
You can thank Hannah Storm for this travesty. She's the one who got her media colleagues to blackball him.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 3:27 pm to Baloo
quote:
Kirby Puckett was a bad selection and shouldn't be used as a standard for future selections. Though Kirby at least had two World Series rings.
Interestingly, Bill James actually defended Kirby Puckett's selection to the HOF in his Historical Baseball Abstract even though Puckett was the antithesis of a great sabermetric player. He said that Kirby had a 62% chance of getting to reach 3000 career hits before his illness struck his career down. Missing the decline phase of his career shouldn't impact how he is viewed as a player since the decline phase has more to do with padding counting stats than establishing greatness. Kirby hit .314 and .317 in his final two years so he was still going strong. In his case, I think it's unfair to penalize him for lack of longevity. His selection was merited IMO.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 4:20 pm to trackfan
quote:
You can thank Hannah Storm for this travesty. She's the one who got her media colleagues to blackball him.
Bitch shouldnt have been in the dugout before the game.
Page 4 of 4
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News