re: Would you put Albert Belle in the Hall?

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We're not talking about racking up counting stats (which is valuable, by the way, and more valuable than people realize), we're talking about actually being able to play.

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Murphy .265/.346/.469 121 OPS+
Belle .295/.365/.565 144 OPS+

Belle has 4 seasons with an OPS over 1.000 (Murphy had none) and 4 seasons with an OBP of .400+ (Murphy had 1). He also has 4 seasons with a BA higher than Murphy's career high .302. Belle has 4 season with an OPS+ higher than Murphy's highest.

In over 2000 more ABs Murphy has only 17 more HRs and 27 more RBI.

Belle >>>>> Murphy

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Could you be more of an amateur. 1983 NL average runs per game 4.10 1995 AL average runs per game 5.06.

regardless of runs per game, Dale Murphy's prime pales in comparison to Belle. We are talking 4 or 5 good years compared to Belle's decade of dominance.


Quality>>>>>>>quantity


longevity is great, but it should never "make" someone a HOF'er.

Belle also played in a higher run environment. Murphy also was a centerfielder, and a great defensive one at that, winning five Gold Gloves. Belle stood around in left field, but he could best be described as an indiferent defensive player. Murphy also stole twice as many bases as Belle.

Belle was also on a team surrounded with near Hall o Fame level talent. Thome has ht 600 HR. Manny has put together a borderline HOF career. Eddie Murray is in the Hall, and was still an effective hitter at that point. Lofton is one of the best defensive CF's I've ever seen, and an effective bat. Vizquel has an interesting HOF case. With all of this talent around him, Belle did not win a single World Series ring.

So... short career, no rings, unlikeable jerk who failed to live up to the "sportmanship" clause, clubhouse cancer, and no reason to believe he was "better than his numbers". Yeah, there's no chance Id vote for him. Not with the packed ballot we have right now.

And, yes, I would vote for Murphy ahead of him.

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I guess that explains why Belle absolutely destroys Murphy in OPS+

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If Murphy retires after 10 full seasons like Belle, his career OPS+ would by 130. Belle still has the edge at 144, but I think Murphy's base-running, more difficult position, superior defense, and better intangibles makes up the gap. I also think OPS+ overrated the "Launching Pad" environment of Atlanta in the 80s. It treats it as if the park was a 1990s run environment. It wasn't. It was better than a lot of 80s parks, but it wasn't in the same universe as Jacob's Field in the 90s.

would you take 10 years of Murphy over say, Frank Thomas?

I'll give you that Murphy's defense does close the gap a bit. But I don't see how you can hold Belle's short career against him but not hold Murphy's short peak against him. I'll take 10 years of greatness over 5 years of greatness and 10 years of averageness.

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The only short career guys I would put in are those who died (Clemente) or had their time shortened by factors beyond their control

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Oh, so Belle just wanted to have a career ending injury.

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I guess that explains why Belle absolutely destroys Murphy in OPS+

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lol you are the one who tried to compare their stats head to head

Didn't Belle get busted in game using a corked bat. The Ump had the bat removed and stored in a "secure" room for inspection after the game. Belle sent a relief pitcher into an air duct to recover the bat.

I know the corked part was true, I remember seeing pictures of the broken bat in question. The other I heard... could be just bullshite.

He was a great hitter, but a lot of off the field problems, possible roids, corked bats, attempted murder and general assholery will keep him far away from Cooperstown.