re: Where does Jokic rank among foreign born NBA stars?

Its tough. It depends on what you weigh-- their peak, their NBA peak, or their impact on the game.

For me, the absolute best foreign basketball player I ever saw was a young Arvydas Sabonis. He was like Jokic, but at another level as a passer- which is saying an immense amount, and a pretty good defender to boot.

In terms of what they did with it, Hakeem has to be at the top of that list-- just an incredible player who doesn't get the all time Top 10 love he deserves. People talk about the end of the era of the lumbering big man, and forget just how important Hakeem was in that transition. Yeah, he had the great post moves, but his mobility and switchable defense were simply amazing. I see shades of it when I watch Wembanyama move now.

I tend to think longevity gets over-rewarded, so put Dirk down a tier from people who simply see a franchise defining player, and assume that means they're an all-time top 20 guy- Giannis has passed him, with multiple MVPs and a title; Jokic can put himself at that Dirk level with a title, and a lot of basketball left to play. Jokic has a much bigger 'fall off the map' potential, given age, health, and mobility, and the memory of what became of Arvydas.

Between Darko Milicic and Wang Zhizhi

He is easily better than Giannis, ring or no ring.

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so put Dirk down a tier from people who simply see a franchise defining player, and assume that means they're an all-time top 20 guy- Giannis has passed him, with multiple MVPs and a title;

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I respectfully disagree. Dirk stretched the game. He was one of the first big men that could be a threat from 3. I look at him as a guy that changed the game. I remember the peak of the rivalry between Dallas and San Antonio, and I legit feared when Dirk had the ball in his hands come clutch time.

Giannis has a more rounded game, but I think the NBA is offensively-centered now. Seeing him clank free throws against the Heat is something I wouldn’t think a guy like Dirk would ever do.

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If you consider [Duncan] to be foreign, then he’s number one by a country mile.

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Hakeem would have dominated Duncan just like he owned David Robinson.

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Single year career best 3 APG

Jokic averages that mid way through 2nd quarter

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Never ever ever mistake NBA Arvydas as anything other than the fat over 40 men's REC league on one leg guy that he was, compared to his young self. That's the pro version of what you saw.

When he came through the country at the age of 17, as part of the '82 exhibition tour against college players, it was simply unfair. He beat down Ralph Sampson, when Sampson was in the midst of winning 3 straight Naismith player of the year awards at Virginia.

There's a reason why Bill Walton called him a 7'3 Larry Bird. There's a reason why Bobby Knight called him the best young player in the world, in that era.

So, yes, Arvydas was a next level beyond Jokic passer. Really, there have only been a handful of passers at his level regardless of position-- he was every bit that good.

Bout time someone mentioned Detlef

If we’re counting Kobe then Dominique Wilkins

foreign born?

right now, i'd have him 2nd behind Olajuwon... he wins a couple of championships, I'd move him to first...

Rik Smitz