- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: .
Posted on 7/5/17 at 9:55 pm to htran90
Posted on 7/5/17 at 9:55 pm to htran90
quote:I would say the ceiling is higher, but it's hard to predict that far out with a player like IT being so good offensively and so terrible defensively. Although that could get worked out too. And Horford will be 33 and commanding 30 million in 3 seasons so that may be an issue too.
While 3 years from now, your ceiling is an A with Hayward.
quote:Sure, but again Brown/Tatum are the keys because Horford, IT, and Hayward are likely to be on the backside of their peak, although Hayward may still have a year or two more.
The benefit of having him now is that you develop a chemistry with IT, Bradley, Brown/Tatum, Hayward, Horford to contend
quote:That just seems like a lot of money for are fringe all star player, especially since they could have gotten better players in George and especially Butler.
Its a move to contend in 2019 or 2020, it isn't for now.
Again, maybe it's my bias getting in the way because I don't like Boston, but I think Hayward went from underrated to overrated without playing a single game since it was the offseason.
This post was edited on 7/5/17 at 10:07 pm
3
Posted on 7/5/17 at 10:21 pm to buckeye_vol
Again, I see what you're getting at but I just disagree. He's gunna benefit a lot going from the west to the east. Also, if Otto Porter is given the max this week Hayward is in no way overrated.
I'm not a Boston fan either but they have probably the second best SF in the east now in league driven by wing players.
I'm not a Boston fan either but they have probably the second best SF in the east now in league driven by wing players.
Posted on 7/5/17 at 10:35 pm to braud2go
quote:I would say 3rd, clearly behind LeBron and Giannis.
I'm not a Boston fan either but they have probably the second best SF in the east now
Posted on 7/5/17 at 10:37 pm to buckeye_vol
Giannis isn't really a SF
Posted on 7/5/17 at 10:41 pm to ShaneTheLegLechler
quote:According to basketball reference they estimated he played 65% of his minutes at SF this past season. Since he's entered the league he's played 11% at PG, 26% at SG, 43% at SF, and 20% at PF.
Giannis isn't really a SF
He's obviously versatile, but I don't know how you could consider him anything other than a SF.
Posted on 7/5/17 at 10:56 pm to buckeye_vol
Giannis is a phenom, I'd say he might be the 2nd best player in the East.
For comparison sake:
Giannis @ 22
52.1/27.2/77.0, TS% 59.9
22.9 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 5.4 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.9 BPG, 2.9 TOV
26.1 PER, .210 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 6.9 VORP
LeBron @ 22
47.6/31.9/69.8, TS% 55.2
27.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.6 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 3.2 TOV
24.5 PER, 0.232 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP
Crazy thing is, advanced stats favor LeBron at 21.
For comparison sake:
Giannis @ 22
52.1/27.2/77.0, TS% 59.9
22.9 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 5.4 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.9 BPG, 2.9 TOV
26.1 PER, .210 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 6.9 VORP
LeBron @ 22
47.6/31.9/69.8, TS% 55.2
27.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.6 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 3.2 TOV
24.5 PER, 0.232 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP
Crazy thing is, advanced stats favor LeBron at 21.
Posted on 7/5/17 at 11:12 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
buckeye_vol
You're getting tunnel vision with numbers. Crowder did what the system asked him to do and he did it well. He made open threes and played good defense. He was never asked to create his own shots or create shots for others, while that's largely what Hayward was tasked with doing. When you have multiple guys who can both create for themselves AND set up others it makes it that much tougher on a defense. Also, Hayward isn't really that much worse than Crowder defensively. And you kinda cherry picked those stats.
Conclusion: Your bias is showing.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 12:36 am to Not Cooper
quote:I agree that they should improve offensively.
He was never asked to create his own shots or create shots for others, while that's largely what Hayward was tasked with doing. When you have multiple guys who can both create for themselves AND set up others it makes it that much tougher on a defense.
quote:See this I'm not sure about. Hayward was an average defender on a great defensive team with the best rim protector in the league. Now he'll join one of the worst defenders (IT) in the league sans the rim protection.
Hayward isn't really that much worse than Crowder defensively.
quote:I didn't cherry pick. I used the composite plus minus statistics, and on-off statistics. Obviously the playoff sample size was limited, but I thought it was telling that Hayward was -10 against the Clippers, especially since Griffin missed a lot of the series.
And you kinda cherry picked those stats.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 1:06 am to buckeye_vol
You showed a few stats that showed Hayward was only slightly better than Crowder. There are many that show that Hayward is a lot better than Crowder.
PER:
Hayward: 22.2 - All star level
Crowder: 14.9 - Slightly Above Average
Win Shares:
Hayward: 10.4
Crowder: 6.7
Wins Above Replacement Level Player:
Hayward: 10.8
Crowder: 5.7
Estimated Wins Added:
Hayward: 14.7
Crowder: 5.2
Hayward alone doesn't push them over the top, but it gets them closer. They still have a ton of assets and their chances only get better as LeBron ages and GS goes deep into the tax.
PER:
Hayward: 22.2 - All star level
Crowder: 14.9 - Slightly Above Average
Win Shares:
Hayward: 10.4
Crowder: 6.7
Wins Above Replacement Level Player:
Hayward: 10.8
Crowder: 5.7
Estimated Wins Added:
Hayward: 14.7
Crowder: 5.2
Hayward alone doesn't push them over the top, but it gets them closer. They still have a ton of assets and their chances only get better as LeBron ages and GS goes deep into the tax.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 7:26 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
That just seems like a lot of money for are fringe all star player, especially since they could have gotten better players in George and especially Butler.
They had to give up assets for those players. The choice wasn't Hayward or George or Butler. They wanted two of those 3, it just didn't work out.
Their biggest mistake was trading away the Fultz pick, IMO. They need a contingency plan for IT.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:32 am to Epic Cajun
Carmelo Anthony was spotted on a flight to Houston. What does it all mean?
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:35 am to PrimeTime Money
To piggy back on that, meta world peace spotted in New Orleans. 
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:38 am to PrimeTime Money
Wasn't that pic from a couple years ago before he resigned with the knicks?
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:38 am to PrimeTime Money
The tattoos on that wall sticker are horrendous
I'm pretty sure that's not what his arm looks like.
I'm pretty sure that's not what his arm looks like.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:39 am to wildtigercat93
Yeah
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:39 am to wildtigercat93
quote:
Wasn't that pic from a couple years ago before he resigned with the knicks?
Yes, the pic placed in this thread was obviously a joke
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:40 am to Epic Cajun
Yeah I figured but I was trying to remember where I had seen that before
Posted on 7/6/17 at 9:58 am to buckeye_vol
quote:Not sure how fair that comparison is for a really good player compared to a role player. Reason being, Crowder played roughly 75-80% of his minutes with IT4 and Horford on the court, so it'll skew when the role player is playing with better players IMO.
I didn't cherry pick. I used the composite plus minus statistics, and on-off statistics
Not to mention, those numbers can show serious anomalies. For example, if you use ON/OFF for IT4 on defense, you'd see that the team is exactly the same with him on vs off in the regular season, and the defense actually got worse when he was off the court in the playoffs. Can we use that to deduce IT4 is NOT a bad defender? Of course not.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 10:51 am to shel311
quote:Of course, but on the flip side Hayward played 86% of his minutes with Gobert.
Not sure how fair that comparison is for a really good player compared to a role player. Reason being, Crowder played roughly 75-80% of his minutes with IT4 and Horford on the court, so it'll skew when the role player is playing with better players IMO.
quote:What? IT 2016-2017 on-off
For example, if you use ON/OFF for IT4 on defense, you'd see that the team is exactly the same with him on vs off
During the regular season, the Celtics had a defensive rating of 112 with IT on the court, and 102.3 with IT off the court. Their defense was 9.7 points better when he was off the court.
quote:Again. They were better with him off the court, although it was small (0.6 points) but that is likely due to the fact he missed most of the Cavs series.
and the defense actually got worse when he was off the court in the playoffs.
quote:Well since the only logical deduction from that data is that he is a bad defender, then of course we can't make the illogical deduction that has no basis. I don't know what you were looking at.
Can we use that to deduce IT4 is NOT a bad defender? Of course not.
This post was edited on 7/6/17 at 10:55 am
Posted on 7/6/17 at 10:58 am to buckeye_vol
quote:Right, but Gobert is good, and so is Hayward. Crowder is not good like Horford or IT4. That's where the discrepancy comes in where it's not really an apples and apples comparison IMO.
Of course, but on the flip side Hayward played 86% of his minutes with Gobert.
quote:Yea never mind, I was looking at it across instead of up and down.
What? IT 2016-2017 on-off
During the regular season, the Celtics had a defensive rating of 112 with IT on the court, and 102.3 with IT off the court. Their defense was 9.7 points better when he was off the court.
I still stand by my original premise, that was just a bad example lol.
This post was edited on 7/6/17 at 10:59 am
Page 104 of 171
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News