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re: Tom Brady on developing a young QB in the NFL
Posted on 8/19/24 at 9:33 pm to AHM21
Posted on 8/19/24 at 9:33 pm to AHM21
There are 2 formulas that work in the nfl.
1. Get a hall of fame qb , pay him the money and let him carry the team.
2. Hit on a young qb in the draft and surround him with good veterans while he’s on his rookie contract.
Everybody else is overpaying a mediocre qb while losing, rebuilding ,or barely making playoffs.
1. Get a hall of fame qb , pay him the money and let him carry the team.
2. Hit on a young qb in the draft and surround him with good veterans while he’s on his rookie contract.
Everybody else is overpaying a mediocre qb while losing, rebuilding ,or barely making playoffs.
This post was edited on 8/19/24 at 9:35 pm
2
Posted on 8/19/24 at 10:20 pm to saintsfan22
quote:
He's old. Of course he's full of "back in my day" shite. Drafting and developing QBs is the same crapshoot it always has been.
You are getting downvoted but this is basically correct. Each generation there are a handful of guys 4-6 or so that are truly great. It’s the combo of physical and mental traits, coaching, the team around him etc. there were not more elite QBs when they were staying in a program 5 years then sitting for a year than there are now.
Posted on 8/19/24 at 10:46 pm to slackster
It seems to me young QBs seem to be doing better as a whole than ever before. Same with young WRs
So not sure he is making any sense
So not sure he is making any sense
Posted on 8/19/24 at 10:54 pm to AHM21
Tom doesn't realize that technology and information are so far ahead at the high school and college level now compared to when he played.
Players are developing faster than when he came up. He's wrong.
Players are developing faster than when he came up. He's wrong.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 4:22 am to lsupride87
quote:
So not sure he is making any sense
Hence why he said they've dumbed the game down. From his perspective the game is not as deep as it once was because guys are showing up to the league unready. Because of the vast sums of money that are involved in the sport now, coaches (and the league as a whole) are adapting the game to the skill set of the players rather than forcing the player to adapt to the skill level of the game.
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 4:23 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 6:01 am to EvrybodysAllAmerican
quote:
Everybody else is overpaying a mediocre qb
I.e. the Dallas Cowboys with Dak Prescott.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 6:24 am to AHM21
He’s definitely correct on dumbing down the game. Offensive systems used to be way more complex for the players. Now, coaching staffs make more of the adjustments on the line than the QB does.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 6:57 am to AHM21
quote:
Yes and no. His point about development - Bo Nix transferred. Jayden Daniels transferred. Penix transferred. Caleb Williams even though he stayed with Riley.
Burrow
This "simplification" is kind of bullshite. The offenses today are more advanced than ever. If they were super simple, defenses would dominate. The development and response of NFL defense is one of the greatest thing in all of sports. How these guys are able to compete against these ever-developing offenses and how they always have a response is amazing.
Now I do have a bit of the traditionalist in me who thinks sitting should help, but how many QBs who failed early on ended up being good NFL QBs? Pat Mayo makes a similar argument all the time on his podcast, especially focusing on rookie QBs sitting behind mediocre/bad guys, primarily placeholders (so this isn't a Mahomes, Love, Rodgers scenario).
Also, with QB contracts, a franchise's most +EV time is when you have a good-great QB on that rookie deal.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 6:58 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Hence why he said they've dumbed the game down. From his perspective the game is not as deep as it once was because guys are showing up to the league unready.
This sounds more like back in my day we walked to school uphill in 3 feet of snow each way
Seriously what does this even mean ? How is the game “dumbed down”? How are the players “unready”? The offenses anre better the overall quality of play is better. There’s some truly great QBs and some that bust out, just like there’s always been. quote:
coaches (and the league as a whole) are adapting the game to the skill set of the players rather than forcing the player to adapt to the skill level of the game.
This sounds like smart coaching how is this remotely considered a negative?
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 8:20 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 6:58 am to Tshiz
quote:
Imagine what stroud could do with some actual development and years behind his athleticism.
He was elite (or borderline elite) as a rookie. How much more development do you think he will have sitting on the bench? And what do you waste with an inferior replacement starting?
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:01 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Hence why he said they've dumbed the game down.
That’s an even worse take. Offenses are more complex and better than ever before. If they dumbed it down defenses would feast. But that isn’t happening
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 7:06 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:10 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Tom doesn't realize that technology and information are so far ahead at the high school and college level now compared to when he played.
Players are developing faster than when he came up. He's wrong.
Correct.
There is a disconnect between "complicated" and "advanced".
Back in Tom's early career, coaches thought the more complicated they could make an offense, the better that offense was. This required the type of system Brady is describing, and he became one of the best because this sort of system fit him. There is something similar with Brees/Payton in NO. A lot of this was the progeny of the WCO, which introduced insanely complicated offenses to the NFL and the broad concepts spread from there.
However, over time, coaches learned better decision-making based in data, and offenses were constructed around efficiency. Coaches actually design offenses to work and help the team, rather than rely on the fact that they're so complicated, only a few guys (offense or defense) can fully figure it out. "Back in the day" coaches would set up their big plays and hope they could get the D tricked. Today, coaches intentionally scheme guys open and will spam that until the D stops the play.
If you think that offenses aren't complicated, just listen to a McVay or Shanahan play call. They're not simple, like Tom implies. They're just better, which Tom takes to mean simplified.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:11 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Because of the vast sums of money that are involved in the sport now, coaches (and the league as a whole) are adapting the game to the skill set of the players rather than forcing the player to adapt to the skill level of the game.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:11 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
This "simplification" is kind of bullshite.
By kind of bullshite you mean complete and utter bullshite
quote:
The offenses today are more advanced than eve
This
quote:
but how many QBs who failed early on ended up being good NFL QBs?
There’s also QBs who sat and still didn’t work out. There’s no reason to think guys that busted would have been good if only they didn’t play as rookies. If sitting was the magic formula should Trey Lance be a stud?
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 7:12 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:15 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
There’s also QBs who sat and still didn’t work out. There’s no reason to think guys that busted would have been good if only they didn’t play as rookies. If sitting was the magic formula should Trey Lance be a stud?
Yeah like y'all said, QBs are weird. If there was a magic formula guys like Lance would have never gone high and Brady/Purdy would have gone high.
The funny part is that Brady was "back in my day'd" by lots of old guys. In another thread PJ just picked Montana over Brady.
And Montana was "back in my day'd" by fans of 70s NFL, and so on.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:26 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Yeah like y'all said, QBs are weird. If there was a magic formula guys like Lance would have never gone high and Brady/Purdy would have gone high.
I will admit to being 100% wrong on Josh Allen. How many guys have ever really had the accuracy issue corrected? So, maybe it it possible to mold the guy with a cannon arm with good coaching. I guess you do have to look at what the QB's team was like in college, too.
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 7:28 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:34 am to AHM21
I’m guessing by “more complicated” he’s referring to the fact that QBs used to have to go through more progressions.
Now, the route trees are more complex, which means coaches are scheming guys open more often. The WRs are much more technical and more physically gifted, so they are getting open more often. All of that means QBs are going 1-2 reads rather than 3-4. It looks “dumbed down”, but it’s not. They’re just better offenses.
Brady himself was a product of this evolution. There’s a reason he was as good, if not better, in his late 30’s as his late 20’s. He didn’t reverse age, the offenses he was playing in got better.
Now, the route trees are more complex, which means coaches are scheming guys open more often. The WRs are much more technical and more physically gifted, so they are getting open more often. All of that means QBs are going 1-2 reads rather than 3-4. It looks “dumbed down”, but it’s not. They’re just better offenses.
Brady himself was a product of this evolution. There’s a reason he was as good, if not better, in his late 30’s as his late 20’s. He didn’t reverse age, the offenses he was playing in got better.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:34 am to Bunk Moreland
quote:
I will admit to being 100% wrong on Josh Allen.
I was, too, and like 10 NFL teams have been wrong in response, trying to recreate that magic, so it's OK (for us).
Allen is the outlier of outliers. The one trait that doesn't typically develop highly is accuracy, but Dabaw developed the frick out of Allen's.
Being able to produce off script is also a new concept, and it's insanely +EV against defenses. The general concept existed in Brady's youth, but how constrained offenses were made this less common/efficient.
There was just a lot of inefficiencies that were sold as something else. Probably the best example is throwing the ball away. This is "back in my day'd" to call modern QBs pussies for not standing in the pocket and taking hits like a man, but it's just such a smarter play. QBs now are trained to throw the ball away and it's simply a better choice.
Guys who can play off script like Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Purdy, etc. give you an option between the play and throwing it away that's a huge edge. Offenses today embrace this, while they thought it was a negative in the past.
This post was edited on 8/20/24 at 7:35 am
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:40 am to RB10
quote:
Now, the route trees are more complex, which means coaches are scheming guys open more often. The WRs are much more technical and more physically gifted, so they are getting open more often. All of that means QBs are going 1-2 reads rather than 3-4. It looks “dumbed down”, but it’s not. They’re just better offenses.
Correct.
1-2 reads based on coverages read pre-snap, and then a short gap to possibly go off script, and then throw the ball away.
With your typical pass rush, you don't have more time to do much else.
quote:
Brady himself was a product of this evolution. There’s a reason he was as good, if not better, in his late 30’s as his late 20’s. He didn’t reverse age, the offenses he was playing in got better.
He QB'd in all sorts of offenses with team success.
Early on he was in a spread with short passes to compensate for not having a rushing game.
Then they had the Corey Dillon/Maroney era, which was a lot of grinding and big plays.
Then he had the Moss era of explosive plays for a couple of seasons.
And that was all just 01-09.
There is a reason why guys like McDaniels and Sean Payotn haven't been able to replicate their success, though. That "so complicated the defenses don't know what is going on" offense only works with a Brady or Brees.
Posted on 8/20/24 at 7:54 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Montana was "back in my day'd" by fans of 70s NFL
Johnny U called his own plays plus the D could literally decapitate the QB back then. Theses sissies like Montana (Brady) the defense can’t even touch
quote:
QBs are weird. If there was a magic formula
It's not just QBs, I could name all kinds of 1st round DEs who looked like Tarzan and played like Jane. We go thru this all the time when people say “stars don’t matter” because some 5* busts or a 3* becomes a star. People want to believe that scouting is easy and act like players are always the same at every stage of his career, but there are a million and one variables that go into a players development and ultimate success. Physical skill is the first one and too many QBs are drafted on that alone. In some cases like Allen it works out in part because of good coaching and a stable organization but he also has to put in the effort and understand the offense and make good decisions.
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