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re: Settle a debate. Hakeem or Duncan?
Posted on 6/8/22 at 7:54 am to H-Town Tiger
Posted on 6/8/22 at 7:54 am to H-Town Tiger
A win share takes every win a team has for the season and divvies it up amongst all of the players on that team. So Duncan played a bigger role in more wins over that time frame. Makes sense bc his sqaud won a lot more games. 3 drivers of wins shares are
1. Team wins
2. durability / Availability
3. Individual Production
1. Team wins
2. durability / Availability
3. Individual Production
0
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:15 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
Parker and Ginobli are both better than anyone Hakeem played with outside of maybe Drexler and he didn’t get Clyde until the end.
Also Barkley and Pippen.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:21 am to CovingtonTigre
quote:
I don’t know who was better but I always think it’s crazy how Duncan never gets the title tiebreaker almost every other athlete gets.
It is weird that Duncan's titles are almost dismissed. It's always his teammates or coach. How good would Parker and Ginobili have been if they played without Duncan? We've seen how good Pop is without him. I think the cast around him was worse than just about every great. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, Kobe had Shaq, LeBron has had plenty of great teammates.
Hakeem's playoff record for an all time great is abysmal. His teams went 16-13 in the playoffs. 7-8 in the first round. He got eliminated in the first round in 88, 89, 90 & 91. Then completely missed the playoffs in 92. Right in the middle of his prime.
Duncan's teams went 35-13 in the playoffs. 15-3 in the first round and never missed the playoffs.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:24 am to TomBuchanan
IIRC, Hakeem gets under appreciated because the Rockets fell apart in the mid-late 80s through no fault of his own.
Ralph Samson’s injuries caught up with him and several other important players kept getting suspended for drugs IIRC, which is why there was such a gap in playoff success between 1986 and 1994 when Hakeem went to his first finals and when he went to his second Finals and won a title.
Ralph Samson’s injuries caught up with him and several other important players kept getting suspended for drugs IIRC, which is why there was such a gap in playoff success between 1986 and 1994 when Hakeem went to his first finals and when he went to his second Finals and won a title.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:29 am to mattz1122
quote:
Peak = Hakeem
Full career = Duncan
That is as good a succinct assessment as you will ever see on the MSB
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:31 am to MoarKilometers
quote:
The average nba career is only 4.5 years, and this dumb mf'er is thinking peaks last 220% of that
Olajuwon went back to back in his 9th & 10th season brether
Both of these guys were great for a long time
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:36 am to JoeHackett
quote:
How good would Parker and Ginobili have been if they played without Duncan? We've seen how good Pop is without him. I think the cast around him was worse than just about every great. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, Kobe had Shaq, LeBron has had plenty of great teammates.
No one wins alone but Parker and Ginobli are hall of famers in the own. right. Kareem won 1 ring without Magic, how many with him?
As for Pop they did win 60 games and made the WCF the year after Duncan retired. He’s an all time great no doubt. But do you honestly think Hakeem would have missed the playoffs of gone 1 and out several years with Pop and that roster? Does Duncan win rings with Don Cheney and the roster the Rockets had from 87-92? In the West at that time with Portland and the Lakers?
Both I think are top 10-15 all time
This post was edited on 6/8/22 at 8:44 am
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:47 am to JoeHackett
quote:
Hakeem's playoff record for an all time great is abysmal.
it is pretty abysmal for a guy who carried three teams to the finals and won two of them
I will say that Duncan's leadership clearly set the tone for the Spur organization. Few stars were going to be as welcoming as he was
This post was edited on 6/8/22 at 8:52 am
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:53 am to H-Town Tiger
To be fair to Duncan, he carried the team pretty hard thru the first two titles. Admiral was still formidable during the first run but that had already become Tim’s team. Robinson was an afterthought on the 2nd & Parker & Manu were both runts.
Who by the way, swept Kobe & shaq in the 1st run & beat them again in the conf semis in the 2nd one.
The Spurs never really did it cheaply. Those western conferences from about 97-2010 were the best basketball in my lifetime
And shite they had the structure to win 3 more titles. The conference was just too damn good
Who by the way, swept Kobe & shaq in the 1st run & beat them again in the conf semis in the 2nd one.
The Spurs never really did it cheaply. Those western conferences from about 97-2010 were the best basketball in my lifetime
And shite they had the structure to win 3 more titles. The conference was just too damn good
Posted on 6/8/22 at 8:59 am to Dire Wolf
quote:
it is pretty abysmal for a guy who carried three teams to the finals and won two of them
Ignored all those first round exits, I don't blame you.
All of his peers in the top 10-15 in NBA history have had way more success in the playoffs. Getting knocked out of the first round 4 straight times and then missing the playoffs all in the prime of his career is abysmal.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 9:02 am to Winston Cup
quote:'93 Hakeem would like a word.
01-02 Duncan was better than any season Hakeem had
Posted on 6/8/22 at 9:06 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
No one wins alone but Parker and Ginobli are hall of famers in the own. right.
Everyone makes the basketball hall of fame.
quote:
But do you honestly think Hakeem would have missed the playoffs of gone 1 and out several years with Pop and that roster? Does Duncan win rings with Don Cheney and the roster the Rockets had from 87-92?
I have no idea. My point is that Duncan's teams never had another real star. And that for some reason all of his titles are just dismissed as though he was Chris Bosh. My personal opinion is that Pop, Parker and Ginobili would be good without him but Duncan would have won no matter who else was with him.
quote:
In the West at that time with Portland and the Lakers?
The West in Duncan's years was pretty loaded as well. Shaq and Kobe, Webber's Kings, Nowitzki, Nash, the late 90's Blazers, Stockton and Malone.
Duncan had to go through some pretty legendary teams as well.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 9:17 am to Lester Earl
quote:
To be fair to Duncan, he carried the team pretty hard thru the first two titles.
That’s definitely a fair point. But remember they were a very good team before they drafted Duncan. They tanked in 97 when Robinson and Avery were hurt. They won 59 games in 96.
quote:
swept Kobe & shaq in the 1st run
As did Utah the year before that.
quote:
The Spurs never really did it cheaply. Those western conferences from about 97-2010 were the best basketball in my lifetime
It really was loaded
quote:
And shite they had the structure to win 3 more titles.
If not for Ray Allen at least 1 more
This post was edited on 6/8/22 at 9:18 am
Posted on 6/8/22 at 9:34 am to JoeHackett
quote:
I have no idea.
Yes you do
There’s no question, it’s not a knock on Duncan but the Spurs were a very good team for a long time. From 1989-90, Robinson’s rookie year they won 56 55 47 49 55 62 59 then tanked 1 year and got Duncan. He puts them over the top. quote:
And that for some reason all of his titles are just dismissed as though he was Chris Bosh. My personal opinion is that Pop, Parker and Ginobili would be good without him but Duncan would have won no matter who else was with him.
This is the problem you are seeing these things as either or. It also depends on what you mean by win. Does Duncan win a ring if he’s drafted by someone else? Very likely but no way does he win 5 if he was picked by say Memphis or even Boston who was pretty bad for several years before Duncan was drafted. Just look at James career. He wasn’t going to win in Cleveland if he just stayed there.
This post was edited on 6/8/22 at 9:36 am
Posted on 6/8/22 at 2:04 pm to Dire Wolf
quote:
Hakeem had more points, steals and blocks. He also averaged more rebounds per game
Duncan won three more rings, had more Finals MVPs, more league MVPs, twice as many first team all-NBA selections, more all-defensive team selections, and more all-star selections. He had a higher career PER and defensive efficiency rating. Based on pro basketball references career defensive efficiency rating Duncan is the third best defender in NBA history.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 2:32 pm to IS_IT_GAMEDAY
Love Dream but it’s Duncan.
Dream is in that tier right below the top tier.
Dream is in that tier right below the top tier.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 2:34 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Duncan won three more rings, had more Finals MVPs, more league MVPs, twice as many first team all-NBA selections, more all-defensive team selections, and more all-star selections. He had a higher career PER and defensive efficiency rating. Based on pro basketball references career defensive efficiency rating Duncan is the third best defender in NBA history.
i prefer to ignore all that because it makes my argument look worse
Duncan was a shell of himself for the last title run. It doesnt matter cause rings are rings but it is worth noting.
He was the absolutely man during the first 4
This post was edited on 6/8/22 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 6/8/22 at 2:49 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
If not for Ray Allen at least 1 more
Hell, they damn near could have had another 1. In 2016, Timmy's last year, the Spurs won 67 games, the most they ever won during his time there.
The team was Kawhi's by that point, but Tim was still a damn good contributor on that squad.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 5:48 pm to IS_IT_GAMEDAY
It is a very tough question. Duncan was the best "boring" player of all time. He also made big impacts that aren't very well measured with stats. He was a consummate team player, seemingly only caring about the outcome, which I really appreciate.
Duncan also played with great casts, for a great organization, with a great coach. He played much of his career in the Era after the collection of great centers.
Hakeem played against arguably the best collection of C in league history. He was a freak for his time, having the agility and finesse to both dominate on O, while also having the physical size to be a force on D. He was poetry in motion, which was/is extremely rare for the 5. He also played in the Era of Stockton/Malone, and of course, Jordan. Last, he also played in the playoffs under the Ramadan rules of fasting. I would think that would hurt his performance to some degree but he still typically put up great numbers.
Hakeem gives the appearance of being the better player. In my opinion, it depends on how much value you attribute to intangibles with Duncan, in order to make up one's mind.
Duncan also played with great casts, for a great organization, with a great coach. He played much of his career in the Era after the collection of great centers.
Hakeem played against arguably the best collection of C in league history. He was a freak for his time, having the agility and finesse to both dominate on O, while also having the physical size to be a force on D. He was poetry in motion, which was/is extremely rare for the 5. He also played in the Era of Stockton/Malone, and of course, Jordan. Last, he also played in the playoffs under the Ramadan rules of fasting. I would think that would hurt his performance to some degree but he still typically put up great numbers.
Hakeem gives the appearance of being the better player. In my opinion, it depends on how much value you attribute to intangibles with Duncan, in order to make up one's mind.
Posted on 6/8/22 at 6:15 pm to Dire Wolf
I actually rate Hakeem as my #4 center all-time, after Kareem, Wilt, and Russell.
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