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Started By
Message
re: SEC and Big East tied for #1 in current bowl standings
Posted on 12/27/09 at 10:57 pm to LSUtigersarefun
Posted on 12/27/09 at 10:57 pm to LSUtigersarefun
quote:that's the regular season the thread is about bowl season do you not see a difference??
No, I don't want to reward losing, I want to award the winning ways that got the teams to the bowl system.
NOW,, some formula rewarding the season in total ,,regular season PLUS bowl season is a different matter
1
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:01 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
rewarding a conference for placing a losing team in a bowl game simply because the campus is closer is a piss poor way to determine which conference had the better post season success
There were no Northern Teams that were eligible and didn't make it this year, in fact most of the eligible teams that haven't made it are from the South including this year with ULL and ULM. And almost La Tech last year. With the addition of 34 bowl games i seriously doubt that it will be an issue, like you are making it out to be.
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:03 pm to OWLFAN86
make it the pros,, lets say,, the AFC west places 3 teams in the playoffs,, and all 3 lose thier first game
0-3
the NFC east places 1 (Bye team) team in the playoffs losing in the conference championship
1-1
which division had the better playoff season?
0-3
the NFC east places 1 (Bye team) team in the playoffs losing in the conference championship
1-1
which division had the better playoff season?
This post was edited on 12/27/09 at 11:07 pm
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:05 pm to LSUtigersarefun
quote:see,, youre arguing the bowl system who goes to what game
There were no Northern Teams that were eligible and didn't make it this year, in fact most of the eligible teams that haven't made it are from the South including this year with ULL and ULM. And almost La Tech last year. With the addition of 34 bowl games i seriously doubt that it will be an issue, like you are making it out to be.
im not arguing that
Im arguing that giving points to a conference JUST for playing in a game to the point they earn more post season points than a conference than plays fewer games but wins more of them is flawed
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:12 pm to LSUtigersarefun
quote:NOT if you rank the bowl games by total wins of two teams
Maybe as in an earlier post you give a bigger reward for winning the game, but you should get something for playing the game.
Say the PAC 10 wins 5 games of 5 and the SEC wins 5 of 10 who is to say that the other 5 PAC 10 teams could win a game. Your system rewards a conference for not having as many teams in the bowl system.
that rewards winnning a tougher game and nothing for losing
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:13 pm to OWLFAN86
Owlfan86,
Bottom line were trying to find a perfect solution to an imperfect system. It will never compute, Logic will not work on an illogical system.
My point is that you should not reward the best bowl conference without first considering who each team is playing and how many teams you send to the bowls. The only way to reward this is to give some baseline points to each conference based on who they will be playing.
Your point is that you should not reward a team for simply playing in the game.
Bottom line were trying to find a perfect solution to an imperfect system. It will never compute, Logic will not work on an illogical system.
My point is that you should not reward the best bowl conference without first considering who each team is playing and how many teams you send to the bowls. The only way to reward this is to give some baseline points to each conference based on who they will be playing.
Your point is that you should not reward a team for simply playing in the game.
This post was edited on 12/27/09 at 11:14 pm
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:13 pm to OWLFAN86
FWIW,
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that XIV's ratings weren't flawed (even XIV himself). And as I have said, I would include a win multiplier and loss deduction and I said he probably puts too much weight for what teams have done in the season.
However, I believe that you are trying to argue that the reason his system is flawed is because of the "inherent unfairness" in the rating system due to bowl tie-ins . What we've spent the majority of the thread arguing about is whether or not the bowl tie-ins actually put any team at a disadvantage (or have ever). And whether or not number of bowl teams should be included in a ratings system (and I think they should).
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that XIV's ratings weren't flawed (even XIV himself). And as I have said, I would include a win multiplier and loss deduction and I said he probably puts too much weight for what teams have done in the season.
However, I believe that you are trying to argue that the reason his system is flawed is because of the "inherent unfairness" in the rating system due to bowl tie-ins . What we've spent the majority of the thread arguing about is whether or not the bowl tie-ins actually put any team at a disadvantage (or have ever). And whether or not number of bowl teams should be included in a ratings system (and I think they should).
This post was edited on 12/27/09 at 11:15 pm
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:24 pm to Guster
quote:
What we've spent the majority of the thread arguing about is whether or not the bowl tie-ins actually put any team at a disadvantage (or have ever). And whether or not number of bowl teams should be included in a ratings system (and I think they should).
the more teams IN bowl games the MORE opportunity for points,, you cant win if you dont play
that is the advantage of have more teams and IM OK with that, they earned it in the regular season
but to reward a team and conference for simply filling in a open spot, in a system that precludes an other team from even getting a chance
a 6-6 ACC team would go ahead of an 8-4 MAC team if all other conference tie ins had been fulfilled
OK,, life is UNfair
but if the ACC goes 5-4 and the Mountain west goes 5-0 ( limited by tie ins)then by your caculations the ACC has a better bowl season
how can 5-4 be better than 5-0
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:35 pm to LSUtigersarefun
quote:agreed
Owlfan86,
Bottom line were trying to find a perfect solution to an imperfect system. It will never compute, Logic will not work on an illogical system.
quote:
My point is that you should not reward the best bowl conference without first considering who each team is playing and how many teams you send to the bowls. The only way to reward this is to give some baseline points to each conference based on who they will be playing.
i offer a solution to the WHO theyre playing by weighting the games based on total wins
so that fixes that
the ACC has 9 tie ins,, the big 12 8
over the past 10 years could you honestly say the ACC is a better conference than the Big 12?
but simply by playing the extra game, the acc would have an advantage if the acc went 8-1 and the big 12 8-0 your formula would have the ACC out pacing the big 12
thats my issue
and even under my system that might STILL happen if the ACC won games worth more total points,, but they wouldnt win simply by placing one extra team in a bowl game and then losing it
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:40 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
but if the ACC goes 5-4 and the Mountain west goes 5-0 ( limited by tie ins)then by your caculations the ACC has a better bowl season
how can 5-4 be better than 5-0
You and your hypotheticals.
As I stated earlier, I would include points for a conference based on the number of bowl eligible teams (not necessarily just for the number of teams in actual bowls). In this case, if the MWC was actually limited by tie-ins, the rating system would reflect that and they would be rated higher than the ACCs 5-4 season.
But since we are rolling with hypotheticals, what if in the 5-4 season, the ACC won the BCS championship, BCS orange bowl, Gator Bowl, Chick-fil-A, and some crap bowl. And the MWC wins a sleuth of crap bowls. Do you still want to give MWC the best bowl season award?
Posted on 12/27/09 at 11:45 pm to Guster
quote:ive already stated several times that I would weigh the bowl games based on total wins excluding conference championships until all conference play them
But since we are rolling with hypotheticals, what if in the 5-4 season, the ACC won the BCS championship, BCS orange bowl, Gator Bowl, Chick-fil-A, and some crap bowl. And the MWC wins a sleuth of crap bowls. Do you still want to give MWC the best bowl season award?
the BSC game and Fiesta have four undefeated teams
reward both winners 30 1/2 points
31,, plus 30,, = 61 this years there an anomaly wit 4 undefeated teams,, that would not normally be the case
sugar bowl
29 points
one loss
break it down from there
if there are multiple games with the same number of wins and losses combine points and divide equally
that rewards the winners of the bigger games
losing team earn nothing,, but the more games you play the more opportunity for points
that rewards a conference for getting a team there but not JUST for getting them there
This post was edited on 12/27/09 at 11:55 pm
Posted on 12/28/09 at 12:07 am to OWLFAN86
quote:
ive already stated several times that I would weigh the bowl games based on total wins excluding conference championships until all conference play them
Cool.
So, do it then. I'm all for seeing more rating systems and how they pan out. Since you already have part of your information, spend some time and rank all the bowl games and the number of points to be divvied out for win.
Posted on 12/28/09 at 9:43 am to OWLFAN86
quote:Then nobody gets screwed. You seem to be ignoring that.
if a conference ONLY gets 3 teams in because of pre existing contracts and has 4 bowl-eligible teams
and another conference get 8 teams in based uopn same contracts but only 7 bowl-eligible teams
Bowl eligible teams generally do not get screwed anymore. Your argument still holds no water.
Posted on 12/28/09 at 9:46 am to OWLFAN86
quote:This is what I don't get. Your system is fine....so make it yourself and compare it to mine and let's have fun with it.
reward the win,, and only the win, make it based upon percentage of games won vs games played
then rank the bowl game in order of overall wins of the two particiapating teams
better bowl game,, better opponent ,more points for a win
no points for a loss
All you've been doing is telling me what's wrong with my system (for six pages) but you haven't taken the time to make your own? Do you not own a copy of Excel?
Posted on 12/28/09 at 11:08 am to xiv
i just like to criticize
Im no good with actually accomplishing anything
Im no good with actually accomplishing anything
Posted on 12/28/09 at 2:48 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
OWLFAN86
Would you include wins against FCS teams as part of your records used to rank the bowls?
Posted on 12/28/09 at 3:21 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
ive already stated several times that I would weigh the bowl games based on total wins excluding conference championships until all conference play them
the BSC game and Fiesta have four undefeated teams
reward both winners 30 1/2 points
31,, plus 30,, = 61 this years there an anomaly wit 4 undefeated teams,, that would not normally be the case
sugar bowl
29 points
one loss
Well technically, since you aren't including championship game results as part of the record. UF would be considered undefeated in your scenario as well.
So, just to make sure I'm understanding your rating system correctly... there are 34 bowl games this year.
The top three bowl games are the Nat Game, Fiesta, and Sugar since they all have equal records of undefeated teams. That would be 34, 33, 32 points each. So you would add those points up (99) and would give each winner 33 points for their conference.
Correct?
Posted on 12/28/09 at 3:35 pm to Guster
quote:it would have been,, but I started putting pen to paper and it just makes more sense and is simpler to total the wins for participating teams and award the winners those points
Well technically, since you aren't including championship game results as part of the record. UF would be considered undefeated in your scenario as well.
So, just to make sure I'm understanding your rating system correctly... there are 34 bowl games this year.
The top three bowl games are the Nat Game, Fiesta, and Sugar since they all have equal records of undefeated teams. That would be 34, 33, 32 points each. So you would add those points up (99) and would give each winner 33 points for their conference.
Correct?
the point total doesnt really matter it the point differential that seperates one team and one conference from another
so the BSC game is worth 26 points
Bama 13-0 vs texas 13-0
the Sugar is worth 24
Cap One 19
that way the regular season win total/sucsess has greater value. And I rewarding a team for beating better competition based on the only objective criteria (win total).
the insight is worth 12 the lowest total
so winning the Sugar is twice and impressing as winning the insight .com,, but winning the BSC is only slightly better than winning the Fiesta
recognizes the winner of the Fiesta has some credible claim to being the best team
This post was edited on 12/28/09 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 12/28/09 at 3:50 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:Not bad.
OWLFAN86
How much you wanna bet we rank the conferences the exact same in the end?
Posted on 12/28/09 at 4:35 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
OWLFAN86
Do you still want to include wins against FCS teams in the points awarded?
i.e. Pitt had a 9 - 3 record with one of their wins coming against youngstown ST. UNC has a record of 8-4 with two of their wins coming against FCS teams (citadel, and Georgia southern).
If you include them, you give the bowl a value of 17 points, otherwise if you don't, the bowl values at 14 points.
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