- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Post your top 15 players in NBA history in this thread
Posted on 6/9/15 at 1:51 pm to cas4t
Posted on 6/9/15 at 1:51 pm to cas4t
quote:He averaged 19.1 per 36 for his career and his best season was 20.3.
didn't he average like 25 rebounds per game or something insane?
Rebounds are weird because centers back then used to average very high rebound numbers.
I don't know why, but they did. It's not really comparable to today's game.
Now, Russell even back then averaged more than pretty much everyone besides maybe Wilt... but you can't directly compare the pure numbers from back then to today.
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 1:55 pm
1
Posted on 6/9/15 at 1:58 pm to jeffsdad
Top 10 Post Merger
1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Karl Malone
1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Karl Malone
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:04 pm to SwaggerCopter
A Lebron hate thread in disguise.
There, FIFY.
There, FIFY.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:05 pm to NorthGAVol
quote:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kyle Korver
6. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Larry Bird
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Tim Duncan
13. Karl Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:16 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Rebounds are weird because centers back then used to average very high rebound numbers.
I don't know why, but they did. It's not really comparable to today's game.
Two words: trans fats
Pussies in today's game with their SJW diets are too soft to go up and grab boards.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:19 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
People are comparing those they have seen play (LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, etc) with those they have never seen play a full game with their own eyes
That's probably true for every player on the list not named Kobe or Lebron for many of the posters.
If you are worried about this then remove it from discussion by qualifying your ranking to only include players since the 80s or 90s (whatever your window is for when you started watching).
I'd point out that the average fan still gets a very stilted view of even the current players. Impressions RE: the excellence of Lebron for example have shifted wildly based on one or two games. If you want a professional opinion formed only by people who watched hundreds of games by each of the players then you need a media poll of someone who has been covering a lot of the NBA for five decades or more.
That's not what the MSB of TD is all about. You know that.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:33 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Why did Russell have so many rebounds? Can we answer that? How do you know he didn't just stand under the rim and purposely miss shots to inflate his rebounding stats? I'm certainly not saying that happened... I'm making the point that stats tell the result, but not how those numbers were achieved.
Because he studied rebounding the way most players study how to score. We know this through first person accounts and his own teammates. We know he didn't intentionally miss shots to inflate his rebound numbers because that would have made the news reports of the games, and those reports don't exist (the player accused of goosing his stats his Chamberlain -- true or not, it is at least a contemporary accusation).
I don't like per 36 stats as much as you do, as it rewards players who cannot play as much, and the ability to log lots of minutes is most definitely a skill, and a valuable one at that. I prefer per game stats as my rate stats. And in Russell's WORST year, he averaged 18.6 RPG.
There are only 24 seasons in the history of the NBA in which a player averaged over 20 RPG. Take away Wilt and Russell, it has happened 4 times by a total of 3 players. The BEST season in RPG by a player not named Russell or Wilt (Thurmond 21.26) ranks only as the 19th best season. Wilt and Bill dominate the all-time rebounding list in a way that no one dominates any other important stat. Let's put it like this: Dennis Rodman is considered the modern master of the rebound, and he averaged just shy of NINE rebounds per game less than Russell. Russell was a better rebounder than Rodman and Chris Bosh COMBINED.
Also, Russell is likely BETTER than his stat sheet, because the NBA did not track blocks and steals when he played, robbing him of a record of his defensive prowess. And it's not like he couldn't score. He averaged 15.08 PPG. Not elite, but certainly nothing shameful (which is why Wilt is better: he could rebound AND score).
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:40 pm to molsusports
quote:I'm not saying you have to watch hundreds of games from each player.
That's probably true for every player on the list not named Kobe or Lebron for many of the posters.
If you are worried about this then remove it from discussion by qualifying your ranking to only include players since the 80s or 90s (whatever your window is for when you started watching).
I'd point out that the average fan still gets a very stilted view of even the current players. Impressions RE: the excellence of Lebron for example have shifted wildly based on one or two games. If you want a professional opinion formed only by people who watched hundreds of games by each of the players then you need a media poll of someone who has been covering a lot of the NBA for five decades or more.
That's not what the MSB of TD is all about. You know that.
But you should still have seen SOME FULL games of each player to get a sense of how they play the game, how they fit with their team, how they are scoring their points, etc.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:45 pm to Baloo
quote:I like per 36 when comparing different eras because coaches played their players way more back then than they do now. It was a different culture.
Because he studied rebounding the way most players study how to score. We know this through first person accounts and his own teammates. We know he didn't intentionally miss shots to inflate his rebound numbers because that would have made the news reports of the games, and those reports don't exist (the player accused of goosing his stats his Chamberlain -- true or not, it is at least a contemporary accusation).
I don't like per 36 stats as much as you do, as it rewards players who cannot play as much, and the ability to log lots of minutes is most definitely a skill, and a valuable one at that. I prefer per game stats as my rate stats. And in Russell's WORST year, he averaged 18.6 RPG.
There are only 24 seasons in the history of the NBA in which a player averaged over 20 RPG. Take away Wilt and Russell, it has happened 4 times by a total of 3 players. The BEST season in RPG by a player not named Russell or Wilt (Thurmond 21.26) ranks only as the 19th best season. Wilt and Bill dominate the all-time rebounding list in a way that no one dominates any other important stat. Let's put it like this: Dennis Rodman is considered the modern master of the rebound, and he averaged just shy of NINE rebounds per game less than Russell. Russell was a better rebounder than Rodman and Chris Bosh COMBINED.
Also, Russell is likely BETTER than his stat sheet, because the NBA did not track blocks and steals when he played, robbing him of a record of his defensive prowess. And it's not like he couldn't score. He averaged 15.08 PPG. Not elite, but certainly nothing shameful (which is why Wilt is better: he could rebound AND score).
And as far as rebounding goes, if two players are averaging that much more than players now could ever dream about averaging, you know there is some explanation behind it besides they're just that much better at rebounding the basketball than people today.
That's not a good explanation because nobody comes close to that today.
Do you think if prime Bill Russell played in the NBA today he'd average 20 or so rebounds per game? It would most likely be way less.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:56 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:Pace
And as far as rebounding goes, if two players are averaging that much more than players now could ever dream about averaging, you know there is some explanation behind it besides they're just that much better at rebounding the basketball than people today
May not explain all of it, but I'd guess most of it.
ETA: Each team had 23 extra possesions per game from Russell's best rebounding year compared to 2015. Someone could correct my math which certainly could be wrong:
- That’s 23 extra possessions for both teams, 46 more possessions per game, right?
- Just using Dwight Howard’s career TRB%, roughly 20%, that’s 9 extra rebounds
- Add that to Howard’s 13 rebounds per game career average, he arrives at 22 per game, Russell averaged 22.5 for his career
So maybe pace does basically explain all of it
I'm afraid I botched it somewhere along the line
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 3:01 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:58 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I'm not saying you have to watch hundreds of games from each player.
But you should still have seen SOME FULL games of each player to get a sense of how they play the game, how they fit with their team, how they are scoring their points,
right well to reiterate:
1) if you really want an expert and informed opinion then you should want someone who has seen dozens or hundreds of games played by the players they rank, and they should opt out of ranking people they haven't seen. That functionally means a select group of older media and players IMO, not MSB posters participating in this thread.
2) you seem focused on the oldest players mentioned (esp wilt and BR) but don't seem to acknowledge the same reality exists for many of the others ranked by young posters who were not even alive when Bird and Magic were retired and Jordan went off to play baseball.
You also seem to make negative assumptions about BR especially. I don't know why Baloo even bothered to respond to your "what if he were somehow padding his stats/" query. That implied to me you would make any excuse to avoid crediting a player you didn't respect for some reason.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:01 pm to Colonel Flagg
quote:Not saying I agree with all of it, but it's the best list I've seen so far.
Top 10 Post Merger
1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Karl Malone
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:02 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Do you think if prime Bill Russell played in the NBA today he'd average 20 or so rebounds per game? It would most likely be way less.
Why doesn't anyone ever ask the reverse? If we sent today's athlete back to the 1950/60s, do you think they'd be anywhere near as effective? Your inherent bias is loaded in how you frame the question. I think if you imported Dennis Rodman into Russell's time, I do not think he'd average 20 RPG.
And honestly, nothing in the record suggests it was easier to grab rebounds back then.* Here's the 5-year trend of RPG leaders prior to the Russell/Wilt period of dominance:
*ETA: Actually, I'm overstating that. There is some evidence, but nearly as much as you seem to suggest.
13.53 - 14.39 - 15.25 - 15.07 - 16.33
Here it is the 5 years after their string of dominance:
18.06 - 14.75 - 16.87 - 14.37 - 15.71
So, you see a bit of a ramp up and a ramp down, but nothing anywhere near the 20+ Wilt and Russell were putting up, aside fro, Hayes' 18.06 in 73-74. But it seems the historic norm hovers right around 15 for your league leaders. Here's the last 5 years in the NBA:
15.23 - 14.54 - 12.43 - 13.59 - 14.95
We do, now, seem to be at a low ebb, probably because of the popularity of jacking up so many three pointers (which leads to longer boards, and less concentrated in your big men). I think the record seems to suggest the outlier is not the 1960s, but NOW.
We always assume the current game is what is "normal", but that's not always so. This seems to be a period of adjustment as the style of basketball changes.
If we look at 5th/6th in RPG, it clusters around 10 or 11 RPG throughout all of hisytory, except for the early 70s, when it jumped to 15. But that wasn't Russell's period, that was Wilt. So you could make a statistical case rebounds were easier in the later part of Wilt's prime. In Russell's time, it was about 12 or 13, so it was easier, but not radically so. We could curve down his 22.45 RPG closer to just 20 if we're feeling punitive. He's still lapping the field.
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:05 pm to Baloo
quote:The problem with all of this is you really need to use rebound rate, not total rebounds to get the answers.
If we look at 5th/6th in RPG, it clusters around 10 or 11 RPG throughout all of hisytory, except for the early 70s, when it jumped to 15. But that wasn't Russell's period, that was Wilt. So you could make a statistical case rebounds were easier in the later part of Wilt's prime. In Russell's time, it was about 12 or 13, so it was easier, but not radically so. We could curve down his 22.45 RPG closer to just 20 if we're feeling punitive. He's still lapping the field.
BRef seems to have the data you'd need for reb rate, but for some reason, reb rate doesn't pop up until the 1971 season.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:13 pm to NorthGAVol
Elgin Baylor isnt getting any love in this thread.
quote:
It's impossible to fully capture Elgin's greatness five decades after the fact, but let's try. He averaged 25 points and 15 rebounds and carried the Lakers to the Finals as a rookie. He scored 71 points against Wilt's Warriors in his second season. He averaged 34.8 points and 19.8 rebounds in his third season -- as a 6-foot-5 forward, no less -- and topped himself the following year with the most amazing accomplishment in NBA history. During the 1961-62 season, Elgin played only 48 games -- all on weekends, all without practicing -- and somehow averaged 38 points, 19 rebounds and five assists a game.
Why was this better than Wilt's 50 per game or Oscar's season-long triple-double? Because the guy didn't practice! He was moonlighting as an NBA player on weekends! Wilt's 50 makes sense considering the feeble competition and his gratuitous ball-hogging. Oscar's triple-double makes sense considering the style of play at the time -- tons of points, tons of missed shots, tons of available rebounds. But Elgin's 38-19-5 makes no sense whatsoever. I don't see how this happened. It's inconceivable. A U.S. Army Reservist at the time, Elgin lived in a barracks in the state of Washington, leaving only whenever they gave him a weekend pass ... and even with that pass, he could only fly coach on flights with multiple connections to meet the Lakers wherever they happened to be playing. Once he arrived, he would throw on a uniform and battle the best NBA players alive on back-to-back nights -- fortunately for the Lakers, most games were scheduled on the weekends back then -- and make the same complicated trip back to Washington on Sunday night or Monday morning. That was his life for five months.
The only modern comparison would be Kobe's 2004 season, when the Lakers star was accused of sexual assault and flew back and forth between Colorado and Los Angeles or wherever the Lakers happened to be playing. You might remember everyone making an enormous deal about Kobe's "grueling" season even though he was flying charters and staying at first-class hotels. Well, can you imagine if Kobe had been re-enacting Elgin's '62 season? The world would have stopped. We would have given him the MVP on the spot. Forty-six years later, nobody even remembers Elgin's 38-19-5 happened. When he carried the Lakers to the cusp of a championship against a juggernaut Celtics team -- becoming the first-ever member of the 60-20 Club in the process (in Game 5, Elgin exploded for an incomprehensible 61 points and 22 rebounds) -- he came within an errant Frank Selvy 10-footer of winning the title in Boston. Standing under the basket, Elgin jumped too soon for the rebound and didn't tip it in. He would never come closer to a ring.
He wrecked his knee during the '64 season and was never the same, although it didn't stop him from making first team All-NBA for 10 of 11 seasons from 1959 to 1969. He played in the Finals seven times, never winning a title despite a series of near-misses. During the first two weeks of the '72 season, Elgin believed he was holding back a potentially great team and retired nine games into the season. The Lakers immediately rolled off a record 33-game winning streak and eventually beat the Knicks for the title. How many guys have the dignity to walk away when it's time? How many would have walked away from a guaranteed ring? When does that ever happen?
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:16 pm to SPEEDY
Baylor was great, but again, when you adjust for pace, it does put a little perspective on those numbers.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:22 pm to shel311
quote:
BRef seems to have the data you'd need for reb rate, but for some reason, reb rate doesn't pop up until the 1971 season.
They didn't track it back then. Same problem as with steals and blocks. I am using bref for my stats, though, as that site is amazing (another reason per 36 stinks, it's harder to compare across seasons because there's no leaderboards like there is for per game). The utility of the stat is severely limited by its lack of common usage.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:22 pm to NorthGAVol
1. Larry Bird
2. Dirk Nowitski
3. John Stockton
4. Jerry West
5. Steve Nash
6. Pete Maravich
7. Rick Barry
8. Bob Pettit
9. Kevin McHale
10. George Mikan
11. John Havlicek
12. Steve Kerr
13. Pao Gasol
14. Kevin Love
15. Manu Ginobili
2. Dirk Nowitski
3. John Stockton
4. Jerry West
5. Steve Nash
6. Pete Maravich
7. Rick Barry
8. Bob Pettit
9. Kevin McHale
10. George Mikan
11. John Havlicek
12. Steve Kerr
13. Pao Gasol
14. Kevin Love
15. Manu Ginobili
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:27 pm to Baloo
quote:they tracked rebounds and FG attempts and pace so I'm not sure why they can't calculate rebound rate
They didn't track it back then.
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:54 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
quote:
Larry Bird
2. Dirk Nowitski
3. John Stockton
4. Jerry West
5. Steve Nash
6. Pete Maravich
7. Rick Barry
8. Bob Pettit
9. Kevin McHale
10. George Mikan
11. John Havlicek
12. Steve Kerr
13. Pao Gasol
14. Kevin Love
15. Manu Ginobili
no delly?
Page 5 of 6
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News