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re: May be a stupid question, but how are old pitching stats so incredible?
Posted on 3/1/23 at 10:53 am to Tiger1242
Posted on 3/1/23 at 10:53 am to Tiger1242
quote:
I understand why they have incredible stats. It’s the incredible amount of pitches I’m talking about.
They did not throw as hard as today's major league pitches. And when their arms slowed down, they still had the advantage because of the ball.
1
Posted on 3/1/23 at 11:23 am to FreddieMac
quote:
They did not throw as hard as today's major league pitches. And when their arms slowed down, they still had the advantage because of the ball.
not to mention the major leagues weren't as major then as they are now, in terms of the talent available. The US had 1/4 of its current population those days, with no one from other countries (or other than whites) playing
that means a legit major leaguer in any era could face dudes that now wouldn't play past high school ball
Posted on 3/1/23 at 2:17 pm to lsufball19
quote:
A lot of those pitchers didn't grow up throwing as much as kids do today This is probably the most likely answer. Kids today are playing 70+ games over the spring/summer starting from the age of 7-8 years old and are playing year round. Sure, they have pitch count limits now, but those kids are also playing in showcases on top of practices and other throwing activities. It's just a recipe for disaster when it comes to long-term arm health
Eh no doubt there are some kids playing an absurd amount of games year round and that certainly contributes.
Let’s not kid ourselves though, those old guys were throwing a lot when they played and were doing a bunch of other destructive stuff to their arms. Here are my thoughts
-we have “mastered” the art of throwing harder and with more spin which is unnatural and this causes more stress on the arm
- we have kids “specializing” in baseball and playing entirely too many baseball games AND
- we have stopped having kids work and build a well rounded muscularity developed body so that all they do is throw a baseball hard
- we are no longer afraid of arm injuries because TJ is so effective so we continue to do all of the above
Posted on 3/1/23 at 2:22 pm to Gaggle
quote:
Gibson '68 is insane. It would be still be top 3 all time even if you included the dead ball era. No one approaches him in the modern era
Steve Carlton 1972 was every bit as good, if not better.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 2:28 pm to Quatre Pot
quote:
we are no longer afraid of arm injuries because TJ is so effective
This is a huge factor, IMO. Pitchers aren't afraid to cut it loose because when their UCL tears, they know they'll come back even stronger than before.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 6:32 pm to chalmetteowl
On the other hand, you couldn't make shite playing other sports. Baseball got the best of that time because they could make a living.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 6:41 pm to VADawg
quote:
Steve Carlton 1972 was every bit as good, if not better.
Like to see your work on this. Other than wins Gibson seemingly has Carlton beat in almost every category
Posted on 3/1/23 at 6:53 pm to VADawg
Kind of makes you wonder what the few old school dudes who did uncork it like modern pitchers would do now w/modern medicine and pitch counts.
Can you imagine how guys like Nolan Ryan, JR Richard, Randy Johnson, Bob Feller etc would approach the game with today’s play style? Hell, Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have been forced to retire from all his breaking balls turning his arm into spaghetti if he played today.
Can you imagine how guys like Nolan Ryan, JR Richard, Randy Johnson, Bob Feller etc would approach the game with today’s play style? Hell, Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have been forced to retire from all his breaking balls turning his arm into spaghetti if he played today.
This post was edited on 3/1/23 at 6:58 pm
Posted on 3/1/23 at 8:51 pm to Ghost of Colby
Lack of corrective lenses hurt hitters.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 8:53 pm to Sun God
quote:
Like to see your work on this. Other than wins Gibson seemingly has Carlton beat in almost every category
quote:
Carlton famously won nearly half of his team's 59 wins as he completed 30 of his 41 starts and threw eight shutouts. He held batters to a .207/.257/.291 line while making 31 starts on three days' rest. He allowed one home run to a cleanup hitter all season. And did you check the innings pitched total? The National League OPS that year was .680, not far below the .704 so far this season. Carlton's 12.2 WAR ranks No. 1 on Baseball-Reference's list since 1960.
He was also throwing off of a mound six inches higher than Gibson.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 8:54 pm to Tiger1242
Guys like Cy Young weren’t throwing 100 mph repeatedly. Early in the game’s history, pitchers used to try to get the ball in play. It wasn’t so much about deception and speed.
They weren’t allowed to be pussies. Nobody was looking out for a player’s arm back then.
The real warrior to me is a guy like Nolan Ryan. The dude brought heat, and did it for an incredible amount of seasons. Randy Johnson is another. I assume they put much more stress on their arms than a guy like Cy.
They weren’t allowed to be pussies. Nobody was looking out for a player’s arm back then.
The real warrior to me is a guy like Nolan Ryan. The dude brought heat, and did it for an incredible amount of seasons. Randy Johnson is another. I assume they put much more stress on their arms than a guy like Cy.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 8:55 pm to Dr RC
quote:
Nolan Ryan, JR Richard, Randy Johnson, Bob Feller
Legendary arms.
Verlander is in that category now, but it seems like most big time pitchers nowadays flame out faster.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 9:19 pm to VADawg
quote:
He was also throwing off of a mound six inches higher than Gibson.
Fair point
Posted on 3/1/23 at 9:46 pm to Tiger1242
Because Ol' Knuckles McGillicuddy was bringing 75mph gas and a 12-11:45 breaking ball.
Anybody with an ounce of talent could throw all day like that.
Anybody with an ounce of talent could throw all day like that.
Posted on 3/1/23 at 10:52 pm to Dr RC
quote:
Can you imagine how guys like Nolan Ryan, JR Richard, Randy Johnson, Bob Feller etc would approach the game with today’s play style? Hell, Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have been forced to retire from all his breaking balls turning his arm into spaghetti if he played today.
Or just imagine what someone like David Clyde, Steve Avery, Kerry Wood, or Mark Prior could have been if their arms weren't run into the ground by the time they turned 25. I don't love how babied some guys are now, but there should be a happy medium somewhere.
Posted on 3/2/23 at 12:04 am to Madking
quote:
You do realize that the new gun adds 2mph to velocity now right? Pitch mph used to be measured by how fast the ball was moving when it crossed home plate now it’s measured by the speed it leaves the pitchers hand. Sure there are more hard throwers now but the ball was moving plenty back in the day and the hitters were better. Anytime a league has to add rules because guys can’t bunt or go the other way tells you the hitting is watered down.
I don't think this is true. While players may be more coddled now, part of the equation is old-timey lineups weren't stacked with players who could punish a guy for hanging a 74MPH spitball during the 8th inning of his 10th straight complete game. From the hitters side, part of what made Babe Ruth ridiculous is exactly how far he was ahead of the crowd.
In 1920, Babe Ruth led MLB with a modern day excellent looking number of 54 HR. Second place: 19 Home Runs. Hitting 3 HR that year in the NL (and 4 in the AL) would have landed you in the top 25.
1920 NL
1920 AL
Posted on 3/2/23 at 12:30 am to VADawg
I believe the mound was lowered after 1968
Posted on 3/2/23 at 12:53 am to Broski
quote:
Anyone want to see a guy who has no idea what he is talking about?
There are actual facts that back him up. It is common knowledge that the technology did indeed change.
Radar gun technology changed
Also, there were different brands of radar guns in the 70's that gave different readings of the same pitch. The Jugs gun was known to give a faster reading than the other one (Speedgun?).
Now, exactly how much faster pitchers in the 70's-80's were then given credit for is debatable, but they were definitely measured differently.
Posted on 3/2/23 at 6:17 am to TexasTiger08
quote:
Early in the game’s history, pitchers used to try to get the ball in play. It wasn’t so much about deception and speed.
Dudes were probably BABIP gods
Posted on 3/2/23 at 8:53 am to lsufball19
quote:
This is probably the most likely answer. Kids today are playing 70+ games over the spring/summer starting from the age of 7-8 years old and are playing year round. Sure, they have pitch count limits now, but those kids are also playing in showcases on top of practices and other throwing activities. It's just a recipe for disaster when it comes to long-term arm health
I think there needs to be a disclaimer here, though. It's not bad to go out there and just throw to keep your arm somewhat in shape. What's really bad is going out there and throwing multiple pens a week while playing year round too.
People are idiots when it comes to baseball.
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