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Started By
Message
re: Little kids throwing curve balls.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:34 am to LSUballs
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:34 am to LSUballs
First, I want to share my belief that teaching a young pitcher a SINKER to complement a straight fastball and/or change-up is all a young pitcher needs to throw.
Some MLBs make a living on SINKERS and it's basically just a variation of a two-seam fastball.
Second, I think the proper way to throw a baseball is using momentum/your body's core and not so much the arm. I tend to agree that using the right mechanics means curveballs can be thrown at a young age. HOWEVER, very few people know what proper mechanics are or how to detect or teach it, so it's probably best for 98% of young pitchers to throw 4-seam fastballs, sinkers, and change-ups.
Some MLBs make a living on SINKERS and it's basically just a variation of a two-seam fastball.
Second, I think the proper way to throw a baseball is using momentum/your body's core and not so much the arm. I tend to agree that using the right mechanics means curveballs can be thrown at a young age. HOWEVER, very few people know what proper mechanics are or how to detect or teach it, so it's probably best for 98% of young pitchers to throw 4-seam fastballs, sinkers, and change-ups.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 11:35 am
2
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:42 am to BornKjun
quote:It's been proven that a "proper" curve means nothing. Most people think that getting over the top with the elbow high is less stressful. This isn't the case. In fact, it may be more stressful specifically on the shoulder. There are so many problems with this. First, most kids don't have large enough hands or strong enough cores/shoulders/forearms to keep the arm high and the fingers on top of a pronated wrist. So there's literally no way to get them to do it "correctly" in the first place. Many will technically be throwing sliders. And that's my second point. Slider or curve makes no difference because they're both stressing different tissues compared to the FB which is where the real issue lies with offspeed specifically.
Second, I think the proper way to throw a baseball is using momentum/your body's core and not so much the arm. I tend to agree that using the right mechanics means curveballs can be thrown at a young age. HOWEVER, very few people know what proper mechanics are or how to detect or teach it, so it's probably best for 98% of young pitchers to throw 4-seam fastballs, sinkers, and change-ups
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:48 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Taiwan has 100 million people.
Its not small in population.
Area of 14,000 sq miles.
Its not small in population.
Area of 14,000 sq miles.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:52 am to BornKjun
I’m not sure kids aged 10-12 throw hard enough to throw an effective sinker
Posted on 4/17/18 at 11:54 am to ell_13
Your excerpts linked dont conclude anything and are theoretical in their hypothesis that the ucl stress is magnified.
Theres is less velocity because you lose some of the kinetic link between you and the ball when your fingers move from directly behind the ball to the top half of the ball. Its a falsehood to attribute the loss in velocity is due to the anatomy of the elbow due to maybe a 45 degree rotation of the wrist at release.
Theres absolutely nothing of a consensus that a curve causes any more elbow problems than a fastball. Any difference or potential for more harm is miniscule compared to total amount of stress.
In reality your TJ surgery was more due to your genetics and second your total amount of throws than you throwing curveballs.
Most doctors simply are not experts on biomechanics. They have a lot of things they need to know quite well which means they simply just cant be experts at everything. They must know injuries and how to fix them. People like me are the people digging into the causes of those injuries.
Baseball unfortunately is just flush with truthisms that are simply not true.
quote:
In other words, while it makes sense that a curve will not create as much velocity because of the limitations of energy that can be generated when you turn your wrist, that same limitation can be attributed to the anatomy of the elbow itself.
Theres is less velocity because you lose some of the kinetic link between you and the ball when your fingers move from directly behind the ball to the top half of the ball. Its a falsehood to attribute the loss in velocity is due to the anatomy of the elbow due to maybe a 45 degree rotation of the wrist at release.
Theres absolutely nothing of a consensus that a curve causes any more elbow problems than a fastball. Any difference or potential for more harm is miniscule compared to total amount of stress.
In reality your TJ surgery was more due to your genetics and second your total amount of throws than you throwing curveballs.
Most doctors simply are not experts on biomechanics. They have a lot of things they need to know quite well which means they simply just cant be experts at everything. They must know injuries and how to fix them. People like me are the people digging into the causes of those injuries.
Baseball unfortunately is just flush with truthisms that are simply not true.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:03 pm to ell_13
quote:
Most people think that getting over the top with the elbow high is less stressful
Im not sure what you even mean by the elbow “high.” The arm mechanics should be exactly the same as the fastball.
It seems your idea of a curveball is doing something crazy different with the elbow.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:10 pm to bamafan1001
I’m talking about the CB specifically. A slider and a CB are mechanically different. Younger players have a tough time doing both of those things was my only point. And that regardless of the mechanics, the stress is different. That’s the key.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:13 pm to bamafan1001
quote:Uh. That’s exactly what it is. The potential energy is lost when you turn the wrist due to the physically limitations of the elbow and forearm combined with where the fingers are at release. That’s not debated.
Its a falsehood to attribute the loss in velocity is due to the anatomy of the elbow due to maybe a 45 degree rotation of the wrist at release.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 12:14 pm
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:30 pm to LSUballs
Tom Emanski says 8 years old.
And he produced back to back to back AAU National Champions!
And he produced back to back to back AAU National Champions!
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:44 pm to LSUballs
at the end of the day it doesn't matter, regardless of what age you start throwing them, I started pitching submarine at 13 and had Tommy Johns Surgery when I was 17. What it really depends on is a Live Arm. If the kid throws hard don't let them throw curveballs at a young age its just too much stress on their developing tendons. Kids today will throw curveballs and other breaking balls in warmups regardless of whether you tell them to or not. I always found that if you throw hard enough, and at the wrong angle theres a high chance of some damage to your elbow or shoulder. its all about the proper mechanics. Fastballs (2 seam and 4 seam) Cutters, Sliders, sinkers, and changeups. are really what youth pitchers should focus on. if you look at it purely from a hitting standpoint, most young pitchers throw what I like to call a "Spin Ball" which is just a curveball that's going about 35Mph and just floats across the center of the plate or even sometimes goes over the umpire. Hitters can easily get more free bases more steals off pass balls and even more homeruns.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 4/17/18 at 12:55 pm to GeorgeTheGreek
quote:
Tom Emanski
Very good at teaching the mechanics of hitting. Not sure about anything else.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:04 pm to starsandstripes
Tom Emanski is knows it all
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:21 pm to LSUballs
My kid didn’t throw one until he was about 14. He played travel ball but the coach was firm in a kid not throwing one until he was taught correctly. He did throw a mean cut fastball though and it wasn’t on the elbow just pressure with two fingers. Now he is a senior pitcher and still has no arm problems
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:25 pm to ell_13
quote:
The potential energy is lost when you turn the wrist due to the physically limitations
No crap, the wrist is only turned to get fingers in a different position.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:28 pm to bamafan1001
There was an ESPN Mag aricle that got into this a few years ago. The assertion was that the rise in incident was due to poor mechanics at the point of the lead foot landing. The arm is under more stress when under a position resembling a "M" with the ball below the elbow instead of above and resembling a "W".
ESPN Link
Companion Piece
ESPN Link
Companion Piece
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:40 pm to bamafan1001
Bama who are some of the baseball people you’ve worked with buddy
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:40 pm to bamafan1001
quote:
Dr. James Andrews
Who also said a kid shouldn't throw a curveball until he can shave.
The worst 12-year-old curve ball in the world will strike out 12-year-old hitters, but what does that prove?
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 4/17/18 at 1:57 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Bama who are some of the baseball people you’ve worked with buddy
None of your fricking business. Im not selling anything. I suppose you wanna believe im just making shite up just to argue. Thats fine..continue to believe and peddle bullshite. I do feel bad for kids with promise who are ruined from bad coaching from jackoffs who are just repeating what their bad coaches taught them.
Posted on 4/17/18 at 2:12 pm to bamafan1001
Are you calling me a liar?
Posted on 4/17/18 at 2:16 pm to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
Who also said a kid shouldn't throw a curveball until he can shave.
The worst 12-year-old curve ball in the will strike out 12-year-old hitters, but what does that prove?
Yet his own study concluded otherwise. This contradicts things ive heard from Andrews in the past but whatever if he said it l, he said it. I have no idea Andrew’s would contradict his own research, but I suspect at least part of the reason is because he knows kids who throw good curve balls...pitch more than those that dont.
I don’t have a kid. Some of you do...if you feel so strongly about it, don’t let your kid throw a bunch of curveballs. Not sure why you would let your kid throw a pitch period that you thought was dangerous.
You can piss and moan at people like me who made an actual living examining biomechanics and look at research to make educated decisions for having a different opinion than your childhood coach who was a roofer or your friend Steve who is a JC washout and now a beer league slow pitch star
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