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Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:30 am to TexasTiger08
quote:
Greenies were similar to an energy boost.
There's a huge difference in loading up on Red Bull than injecting and cycling with muscle builders to add mass.
There is a huge difference between Amphetamines and Red Bull.
I just think baseball needs to admit that it is damn near like cycling and has been for 30+ years, where if you "aren't cheating you aren't trying." Steroids have been around and were abused since the early 70's I imagine. Speed is older and probably used 50 years.
Just don't take a fake "stand" against roids and then ignore amphetamines.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:31 am to TexasTiger08
quote:
Greenies were similar to an energy boost.
Not exactly. By speeding up your senses, they slow the game down for you. When I played I loaded up on extremely strong coffee an hour before the game. It slows a fastball down by about 5 mph. It gives you an extra step reacting to a hot grounder to your left or right.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:31 am to dukke v
quote:
When they moved to Atlanta the stadium was much different. They didn't call it The Launching pad for nothin.
They also lowered the mound from 15 inches to 10 in 1969.
And in the early 1970s the caverns like Forbes Field were replaced with normal-sized ballparks.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:32 am to Colonel Flagg
quote:
It is stupid to not call Bonds the homerun king IMO.
No doubt, 762 is the all-time record.
I really cannot believe that people do not think Bonds should be in the Hall because he "cheated". Does the Hall only accept moral, clean players? To me, this is preposterous. The fact that baseball did not enforce the steroid policy until around 2004 or 2005 was to fault of MLB, not the players. The players were not being punished for using a banned substance, so there was almost no risk to using steroids to be a better ballplayer.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:33 am to tduecen
quote:
Ruth used steroids
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:36 am to dukke v
quote:
Bonds NOT so much.
Please tell you are joking. You may claim to know about sports when they were better back in the 1960's and 1970's, but seriously? Bonds has had an extremely consistent career in terms of being a great player year in and year out, starting in 1990. Bonds was tremendous from 1990-2004.
See for youself
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:37 am to Vicks Kennel Club
the reason why bonds is such an interesting case is that you can vacate his entire career where we're pretty sure he was on juice and he's still a HOF player
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:37 am to Kafka
Totally laced with steroids....
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:38 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:755...
No doubt, 762 is the all-time record.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:40 am to LSU alum wannabe
Cycling's a great example but not for the reasons you think. No sport has a more comprehensive testing program cdedicated to actually catching users. And what do they get for actually enforcing drug rules? A rep as the dirtiest sport in the world. The lesson here is that honest enforcement actually HURTS the sport. Just as many soccer players have been caught in the raids of European dug labs, but you don't hear of soccer as a dirty sport.
And there is no chance in hell baseball has a drug problem anywhere NEAR as bad as football's. the fact we get outraged about baseball and tacitly approve the NFL's blatant steroid use is comical. Hell, nearly an entire Super Bowl TEAM was found to be using steroids and it was barely a story.
You want to talk about abnormal size? Look at how offensive lines have grown in the past 30 years. It's frightening.
And there is no chance in hell baseball has a drug problem anywhere NEAR as bad as football's. the fact we get outraged about baseball and tacitly approve the NFL's blatant steroid use is comical. Hell, nearly an entire Super Bowl TEAM was found to be using steroids and it was barely a story.
You want to talk about abnormal size? Look at how offensive lines have grown in the past 30 years. It's frightening.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:42 am to Baloo
quote:
Look at how offensive lines have grown in the past 30 years. It's frightening
part of that is the "fat man" syndrome
i'm not saying guys don't juice up, but look at the waistlines of players in the 80s compared to today
same for the mammoth DTs we see today (which are falling out of fashion somewhat)
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:45 am to Baloo
quote:
And there is no chance in hell baseball has a drug problem anywhere NEAR as bad as football's. the fact we get outraged about baseball and tacitly approve the NFL's blatant steroid use is comical.
+1
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
so what are we going to do?
nothing except use our own judgement
quote:
establish a factor that each performance enhancing drug affects your game, then adjust your #s by this (for only the years when you were using said drug)?
Again, just use our eyes. Very few people on here love Barry Bonds as much as I do, but even I think it's laughable to compare what he did to greenies. Morally, perhaps they're the same. And I loathe the hypocricy of all the steroid-moralists, but let's not be naive enough to actually think amphetamines give you the same kind of results that steroids do. Greenies no doubt helped, however.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:52 am to Colonel Flagg
quote:
It is stupid to not call Bonds the homerun king IMO.
No doubt. The balls went over the fence.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:53 am to Hot Carl
quote:
nothing except use our own judgement
baseball writers have proven time and time again that their judgment sucks
quote:
but let's not be naive enough to actually think amphetamines give you the same kind of results that steroids do.
but we're judging eras
guys in the 60s and 70s taking steroids wouldn't matter much b/c they didn't lift weights
for the time period, speed was the best way to improve performance that i can think of
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:54 am to Hot Carl
quote:
Again, just use our eyes. Very few people on here love Barry Bonds as much as I do, but even I think it's laughable to compare what he did to greenies. Morally, perhaps they're the same. And I loathe the hypocricy of all the steroid-moralists, but let's not be naive enough to actually think amphetamines give you the same kind of results that steroids do. Greenies no doubt helped, however.
I wish you were the collective opinion of the Hall of Fame committee.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 11:56 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
baseball writers have proven time and time again that their judgment sucks
I agree wholheartedly with you and Baloo. I'm not sure I dislike a group of guys moreso than these arse clowns.
quote:
but we're judging eras
guys in the 60s and 70s taking steroids wouldn't matter much b/c they didn't lift weights
for the time period, speed was the best way to improve performance that i can think of
we're on the same page
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:00 pm to Hot Carl
that's why i said develop some formula to show how each drug affects the stats...that's about the only thing i can think of
bonds was on juice, but so was almost everyone else, including the pitchers he went up against
he still had the greatest season in the post-WW2 era despite competing against, and being compared to, a juiced-up MLB
bonds was on juice, but so was almost everyone else, including the pitchers he went up against
he still had the greatest season in the post-WW2 era despite competing against, and being compared to, a juiced-up MLB
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
nobody clings to the past and rejects rational thought more than baseball writers
God, so true.
I heard Tim Kurkijan (whom I like) saying the other day that he would NEVER vote Manny into the hall, evne though he's voted for Palmeiro AND McGwire, because Manny did it "twice" and "got busted twice" so he just has nooooo respect for the game.
Give me a fricking break.
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