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Message
re: Did Hank Aaron use steroids?
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:09 pm to OBUDan
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:09 pm to OBUDan
While I hate the respect for the game argument, I do think there is a fundamental difference between Manny actually flunking a test after steroids are illegal and Bonds using steroids when it was not against the rules and the owners were encouraging drug use with a wink and a nod. I do have a line on those who fail a test NOW.
1
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
he still had the greatest season in the post-WW2 era
WHAT??? Any player that hits more Hr's than Singles in a season is NOT a GREAT year.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:10 pm to OBUDan
this also plays into the whole baseball v football argument, imho
baseball is still seen as this "pure" sport, b/c of how it is viewed by so many
baseball is also a sport where an everyman can develop himself into a solid-good positional player by hard work and developing skill (b/c it's so skill-based)
there are barriers to entering football and basketball, and i think most who played the sports understand this. it's really hard for the "old school" baseball fans to understand the concept
baseball is still seen as this "pure" sport, b/c of how it is viewed by so many
baseball is also a sport where an everyman can develop himself into a solid-good positional player by hard work and developing skill (b/c it's so skill-based)
there are barriers to entering football and basketball, and i think most who played the sports understand this. it's really hard for the "old school" baseball fans to understand the concept
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:10 pm to OBUDan
Also, the debate of what exactly is a PED is a good one. I think it's really interesting.
You say players didn't weight train in the 60s and 70s. Isn't that a PED? Argument would be "no, cause it's natural."
Well then, what about LASIK surgery? If you are born to the degree that you can see well enough to function, but could certainly use some enhancement and get surgery to have better than perfect vision, you sure as hell can't tell me that won't enhance your performance... and it's not natural.
You say players didn't weight train in the 60s and 70s. Isn't that a PED? Argument would be "no, cause it's natural."
Well then, what about LASIK surgery? If you are born to the degree that you can see well enough to function, but could certainly use some enhancement and get surgery to have better than perfect vision, you sure as hell can't tell me that won't enhance your performance... and it's not natural.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:13 pm to dukke v
quote:
Any player that hits more Hr's than Singles in a season is NOT a GREAT year.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:16 pm to dukke v
quote:
Any player that hits more Hr's than Singles in a season is NOT a GREAT year.
Lol wut?
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:17 pm to OBUDan
quote:And there's the death of outrage. I mean, the difference between what is an illegal PED and what is a legal supplement is so narrow as to be meaningless.
Also, the debate of what exactly is a PED is a good one. I think it's really interesting.
And look at cycling again. EPO is essentially a process by which you take out your own blood and inject it with oxygen and a hormone that allows you to make more red blood cells. It's your blood, it's a naturally occuring hormone, and it's oxyen... yet it's illegal. Why?
I mean, honestly. Why?
We could ask the same thing with steroids. If steroids are administered through a doctor and in a responsible way so as not to harm the patient... why are they illegal? It's not like if any of us took steroids we'd suddenly be Barry Bonds.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:18 pm to Baloo
quote:
While I hate the respect for the game argument, I do think there is a fundamental difference between Manny actually flunking a test after steroids are illegal and Bonds using steroids when it was not against the rules and the owners were encouraging drug use with a wink and a nod. I do have a line on those who fail a test NOW.
As a lawyer, I would expect you to approach it this way.
There's definitely some type of line there, I agree that Manny is pretty stupid in general. But the implication that he did it "twice" so that's why I'm not voting for him, but McGwire and Palmeiro (both admitted users) are all good with me just rubs me wrong.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:20 pm to Baloo
yeah i definitely saw "bigger, stronger, faster" this week so i need to refrain from sounding like an expert on the subject b/c i saw one doc
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:21 pm to OBUDan
quote:
I agree that Manny is pretty stupid in general.
we didn't need steroids to tell us this
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:22 pm to tduecen
quote:
755...
768. Aaron should get credit for the home runs he hit in the Negro Leagues.
(Or for that matter, Josh Gibson...)
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:24 pm to Baloo
quote:
And look at cycling again. EPO is essentially a process by which you take out your own blood and inject it with oxygen and a hormone that allows you to make more red blood cells. It's your blood, it's a naturally occuring hormone, and it's oxyen... yet it's illegal. Why?
I mean, honestly. Why?
When EPO first became popular, cyclists were pumping themselves so full of red blood cells that their blood was basically become sludge causing guys to drop dead left and right.
What cycling needs to do is simply say that your red cell count can't be above a certain level and just let guys do what they're going to do. That's much more dificult to do with anabolic steroids
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:25 pm to usc6158
quote:
When EPO first became popular, cyclists were pumping themselves so full of red blood cells that their blood was basically become sludge causing guys to drop dead left and right.
this is the dividing line, i think (except for baseball and its "purity")
we want to see our stars be superhuman, but we don't want to see them die as a result
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:26 pm to Baloo
quote:
It's not like if any of us took steroids we'd suddenly be Barry Bonds.
I feel like that's something that escapes all of the steroid moralists.
"He hit 73 when he was 36. Obviously a roider! He's no good without the juice."
Well, no. As SFP said earlier, he was a HoF player before he even started hitting monster shots into the Bay and going after the HR title.
Hell, 2001 was really the only season his HR total took a major spike off previous totals (he hit in the 40s multiple times in the 90s, even 46 in '93).
I kinda give him props for blasting 73... that's fricking hard to do, I don't care if PEDs were involved. He curved back down to the 40s the next 3 years... I doubt he slowed his drug intake after smashing the single season record.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
yeah i definitely saw "bigger, stronger, faster" this week so i need to refrain from sounding like an expert on the subject b/c i saw one doc
i base most of my arguments off that doc and definitely try to grandstand my expertise
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:28 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
768. Aaron should get credit for the home runs he hit in the Negro Leagues.
(Or for that matter, Josh Gibson...)
I have always wondered how many Gibson really hit. I have heard speculations of 950-ish home runs.
Also, you have to look at the documented world home run king Sadaharu Oh who hit 868 home runs!
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:28 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we didn't need steroids to tell us this
no, no we didn't.
the manny/chad ogea (lake charles boy) story is still my favorite.
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:29 pm to OBUDan
chad ogea's aunt, i believe, is my land lord
RESPECK
RESPECK
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:31 pm to OBUDan
quote:
i base most of my arguments off that doc and definitely try to grandstand my expertise
when you questioned the definision of PEDs and brought up LASIK i guessed that
Posted on 4/17/11 at 12:33 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:Don't trust Negro League stats. The schedule was irregular and they played anybody. I mean anybody - a lot of their games were against local company teams and whatnot.
768. Aaron should get credit for the home runs he hit in the Negro Leagues.
This doesn't mean there weren't a lot of great players in the Negro Leagues, there certainly were, but I just don't trust the numbers. But I don't need the numbers to tell me Oscar Charlton and Josh Gibson were great, great players.
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