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re: 2022 Formula 1 Season Thread

Posted on 4/5/22 at 12:32 am to
Posted by Street Hawk
Member since Nov 2014
3644 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 12:32 am to
quote:

They can figure out their power issues (however much there actually is) but unless it is on the electric side they can't do much if anything about it until 2025.

While possible I don't see going into the last 3-4 races in a three-way fight for the WCC, mainly due to the cap. Mercedes's burn rate is almost certainly much higher than RBR and Ferrari right now. I think Mercedes's high point will be just after the summer break when I think they will be close to the other two but will wane as I bet they don't have the cap to match the other two's development in the latter part of the season. Ferrari will likely lose the most wind-tunnel and CFD time when it gets reshuffled mid-season but I think the die is cast. I just don't see the massive shifts in lap times we have seen in previous years due to the pesky cap.


But if their speed deficit is actually aero related as that tweet seems to be implying, they should be able to close the big gap to Red Bull and Ferrari without as many restrictions, shouldn't they?
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 12:52 am to
quote:

While possible I don't see going into the last 3-4 races in a three-way fight for the WCC, mainly due to the cap. Mercedes's burn rate is almost certainly much higher than RBR and Ferrari right now.


Highest burn rate with the least amount of time allowed to burn isn't a great place to be.

Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
78304 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 1:35 am to
If/when they solve the porpoising they can lower the ride height and gain a lot of speed.


Just not sure I buy the engine/fuel being that much of an issue. McLaren seemed to take a decent step forward in Saudi. Russell still had plenty of pace with all the other issues considered.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30396 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 2:49 am to
First, Mercedes got their car fundamentally wrong compared to Red Bull and Ferrari. They are over a second down on race pace. The biggest issue with fixing their error is it can't be tested in the tunnel and there is very limited ability to replicate it in CFD especially when you consider the computing power limited now. I don't think there is anything like a second in the main and beam wing structure, if there is then they made an incredibly massive error for a team like Mercedes, they are dealing with known knowns there.

I think they are down on power and though it isn't the major issue it will be an albatross unless it is mainly electrical and they can fix it before the homologation.

While anything is possible it would be unprecedented for them to come back from where they are at to compete for the WCC and probably the WDC. The closest analog would be 2009, the major difference there is everyone could see the reason Brawn had the advantage and could copy it with no spending cap. Merc can't see under the floor of the Red Bull and Ferrari and the inability to test it means throwing shite against the wall to see what sticks, that is practically a needle in the haystack when the cap is considered.

The whole time Merc is spending money looking for over a second RBR and Ferrari will be spending money for tenths and hundredths I think the moving target will be too much for Merc to overcome. I have been on the bad end of hope too many times to bet on it. The cap changes everything when you come out of the gate with a donkey.

If anyone believes in Merc they are +700 now and Hamilton is +1000 for the championships.
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
78304 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 3:02 am to
I don't think they will make a run at WCC much less WDC. I do think they will get the majority of their issues sorted by the end of the year.

Recent history makes me think RBR is in a really good spot to make up their deficit, they would seem to have the development edge on Ferrari. Ferrari has a better driver combo at this point though.
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 4:43 am to
When it comes to power I look at how Ham fingerwalked by K Mag with DRS while the next time by Kevin essentially blew the Merc in the ditch he went by so fast while he had the DRS.

The Mercs are having trouble getting by others with DRS so I'd say they do have a power disadvantage. The car can't be so bad aerodynamically, as far as pure drag, to be the reason for such a difference.

And the Haas was also porpoising at Saudi Arabia so that can't be the only Merc issue.
Posted by UncleFestersLegs
Member since Nov 2010
16879 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 5:50 am to
quote:

But if their speed deficit is actually aero related as
it would seem one of the merc powered cars would have gotten better aero but they are all at the back straight line speedwise. I know aero is very important but outside of sebs run at red bull rarely does the best car not have the most grunt. Compare it to motogp. Ducati has been unbeatable on the straights for years. No one passed them on the straights ever. Aprilia won their first race Saturday in the motogp era and espargaro pulled out on the Ducati at the end of straight. I've never seen another bike do that. Even Suzuki is fast in a straight line this year. I drove SCCA back in the day and it sucked busting my arse to get the pass in the twisty bits to watch them blow back by on the straight. Give me that grunt anyday. It will cover up many other disadvantages
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
78304 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 5:51 am to
It seems, for now, Merc's solution for porpoising is just to increase the ride height. Which is definitely hurting the drag as well as negating the floor.

Like Obtuse said, they may have seen a drag coefficient crazy low without sidepods, but lack of windtunnel testing meant they couldn't solve problems until they had real world data.
This post was edited on 4/5/22 at 5:53 am
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 6:47 am to
If you believe them, Ferrari and Haas have both claimed to have tried the narrow pods and went away from them.

Personally, and I'm no aero engineer, I would think the small/narrow pods leave too much air hitting the rear tires and suspension which would add drag.

Saying that, F1 cars are generally about the most unaerodynamic cars on the planet as far as drag goes. That's why I'm not buying Mercs straight line problem is drag. They are all bad so I find it hard to believe Merc, and basically all the other Merc powered teams, have exponentially more drag than the others.
Posted by UncleFestersLegs
Member since Nov 2010
16879 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 6:53 am to
quote:

Personally, and I'm no aero engineer, I would think the small/narrow pods leave too much air hitting the rear tires and suspension which would add drag.
they don't have an adrian newey but if this is true how could they get it so wrong?
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 7:33 am to
Hubris and a lack of wind tunnel time due to a WCC and WDC battle? I dunno.

All I know is two other teams claim to have looked at it and after some testing threw it in the dumpster.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30396 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

but if this is true how could they get it so wrong?


I don't mean this in a condescending way but that is what teams do in the face of major formula changes. It took Ferrari out in 2005 and Red Bull out in 2015. Hell, it took every team of consequence out in 2009.

I knew the second Lewis said "My team don't make mistakes" in the Barcelona test presser it was either going to be a stamp of Mercs prowess or it was going to become an infamous quote.



The interesting thing about this year is we have two cars with very different design philosophies that are neck and neck at the front of the pack. One is "brighter" than the other and I expect that to become clear over the next 3 years.
Posted by hikingfan
Member since Jun 2013
1757 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 1:29 pm to
That's why I always try to warn the newly minted Max and Red Bull fans who rooted so hard against Merc and Lewis last year - Be careful what you wish for.

It very conceivable to see Max win 4-5 WDCs here in a row if Ferrari doesn't stay on top of their game and Mercedes doesn't stage some kind of a miraculous comeback.

You think you got tired of seeing Lewis and Mercedes win all the time? Now try replacing them with Max and Horner for the next few years
Posted by Street Hawk
Member since Nov 2014
3644 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 1:58 pm to
quote:

Ferrari has more power to unlock from their engine, a significant increase from Spain is scheduled to respond to the updates that Red Bull and Mercedes will bring.

LINK

@Obstuse1 - Do you know if this @LappedCars twitter account is any good and can be trusted?
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30396 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 2:14 pm to
quote:

@Obstuse1 - Do you know if this @LappedCars twitter account is any good and can be trusted?


I don't know anything about that particular Twitter account but if you take in the width and breadth of F1 reporting every team is bringing significant updates to just about every race. I think that nugget might be from some Leclerc quotes over the last few days.

I wouldn't doubt Ferrari among others after looking at data and borescoping the engines they will feel comfortable unlocking more aggressive engine maps. Further, what teams say and what teams do are often just a game of cat and mouse.
Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 2:30 pm to
Great explanation
Posted by busbeepbeep
When will then be now?
Member since Jan 2004
19511 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 2:34 pm to
quote:

Now try replacing them with Max and Horner for the next few years
Just need Checo to keep outqualifying Max
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
78304 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 2:54 pm to
Checo will turn into Bottas.

Surprised we didn't see a few "RBR screwed Checo by putting him early, they can't let him beat Max!!!"
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30396 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 3:00 pm to
quote:

Now try replacing them with Max and Horner for the next few years


First I don't want any team to dominate the sport... except for Ferrari.

Honestly, if RBR goes on a run I don't think Max or Christian will be as insufferable IF Ferrari is their major competition. I think a big part of the issue was the Christian/Toto and Max/Lewis dynamic. One pair is too much alike and one pair is too different. I also think all four of them would have preferred if they didn't go as deep as they did. The warring was probably a distraction for all of them but once the die was set it was set. I do not see the Mattia/Christian Charles/Max dynamic evolving the same way if they end up as the front runners for the next 3 years.

In my selfish opinion, it is time for a paradigm shift away from fizzy drinks and Johnny come (back) lately teams. I guess since Williams and McLaren seem to have lost the plot it is up to the Scuderia but I honestly wouldn't cry too many tears if McLaren or particularly Williams find a miracle, and I say this hating McLaren.
Posted by YOURADHERE
Member since Dec 2006
8497 posts
Posted on 4/5/22 at 3:10 pm to
I think the difference would be Perez would be more OK with that role than Bottas was. Bottas stepped into a winning team and expected to be closer to Lewis than he always ended up being.

Perez was about to find himself out of a seat entirely and landed himself in a team capable of getting him a competitive car. I'd like to hope people who are Checo fans accept that he's there to be the #2 and I'd bet he's perfectly ok with that. He had more podiums in 2021 than he did in the previous 5 years or so, scored a win with the team, his first pole position, and will likely see himself have a fairly successful 2022.
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