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Started By
Message
The Final Series: A Series of Pictures
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:52 am
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:52 am
Threads have been started every day since the game bashing Jefferson for not clocking the ball as soon as he got up from being tackled on second down. Hundreds of posts have blasted Jefferson for not immediately clocking the ball. Posters and media have erroneously stated that Jefferson had 25 seconds in which to "clock it" after he was tackled.
Jefferson did not have 25 seconds to clock the ball. From the time he was tackled until the time the ball was snapped, Jefferson had no opportunity to clock the ball. Moreover, clocking the ball with more than 15 seconds was clearly not the right call. (I'd argue that clocking the ball with more than 8 seconds was not the right call.)
What is the right call with 25 seconds left?
0:27 - Jefferson tackled.
0:25 - Jefferson getting up.
It's third down. LSU is on the 1 yard line. There are 25 seconds left. What should LSU do?
Clock it?
No. That's not the right call.
Even with no timeouts, there is plenty of time to run a pass play into the endzone on third down and then another play on fourth down if the third down pass play is incomplete. Of course, for third down, you have to use the players that are on the field after the second down play. If you want to substitute, you can sub when the clock is stopped after third down.
The QB should not decide to clock it with 25 seconds left. It's going to take the team at least 5 or 6 seconds just to get lined up and clock it after Jefferson's second down run anyway. However, even with 19 seconds left, clocking it is the wrong call. There is time to run two plays. A pass and a run, or a pass and a pass.
Thus, if Jefferson had clocked it with between 25 and 15 seconds left, everyone, including me, would say that he screwed up and cost LSU a chance at two plays. Getting the offense lined up and clocking it on third down with 19 seconds left was simply the wrong call. Moreover, no QB should take third down away from his coach with more than 15 seconds left. It's not the QB's call. The QB should not clock it with more than 15 seconds left. (I'd find it hard to fault a QB for clocking it with between 15 and 8 seconds left unless his coach had given him specific instructions not to clock it.)
What was Jefferson supposed to do while getting up with 25 seconds left? There is only one right choice. Look to the staff to see what play will be called.
Jefferson cannot clock it from the 0:25 mark to the 0:19 mark without incurring a penalty.
0:20 - Jefferson cannot clock it: the substitutes are running onto the field; the offense is not ready.
0:19 - Jefferson cannot clock it: the substitutes are running onto the field; the offense is not ready.
As discussed above, Jefferson should not have clocked it with 19 or 20 seconds left because there was time to run two plays.
After the second down running play, no one on the offense knew what is going to happen next. There was time to run two more plays, but the offense did not know what those two plays would be. With the crowd noise and confusion, no QB could have gotten the team ready to clock it before the 0:19 mark. (And for the reasons discussed above, no QB should have gotten the team ready to clock it at the 0:19 mark.)
Post 1 of 2.
Jefferson did not have 25 seconds to clock the ball. From the time he was tackled until the time the ball was snapped, Jefferson had no opportunity to clock the ball. Moreover, clocking the ball with more than 15 seconds was clearly not the right call. (I'd argue that clocking the ball with more than 8 seconds was not the right call.)
What is the right call with 25 seconds left?
0:27 - Jefferson tackled.
0:25 - Jefferson getting up.
It's third down. LSU is on the 1 yard line. There are 25 seconds left. What should LSU do?
Clock it?
No. That's not the right call.
Even with no timeouts, there is plenty of time to run a pass play into the endzone on third down and then another play on fourth down if the third down pass play is incomplete. Of course, for third down, you have to use the players that are on the field after the second down play. If you want to substitute, you can sub when the clock is stopped after third down.
The QB should not decide to clock it with 25 seconds left. It's going to take the team at least 5 or 6 seconds just to get lined up and clock it after Jefferson's second down run anyway. However, even with 19 seconds left, clocking it is the wrong call. There is time to run two plays. A pass and a run, or a pass and a pass.
Thus, if Jefferson had clocked it with between 25 and 15 seconds left, everyone, including me, would say that he screwed up and cost LSU a chance at two plays. Getting the offense lined up and clocking it on third down with 19 seconds left was simply the wrong call. Moreover, no QB should take third down away from his coach with more than 15 seconds left. It's not the QB's call. The QB should not clock it with more than 15 seconds left. (I'd find it hard to fault a QB for clocking it with between 15 and 8 seconds left unless his coach had given him specific instructions not to clock it.)
What was Jefferson supposed to do while getting up with 25 seconds left? There is only one right choice. Look to the staff to see what play will be called.
Jefferson cannot clock it from the 0:25 mark to the 0:19 mark without incurring a penalty.
0:20 - Jefferson cannot clock it: the substitutes are running onto the field; the offense is not ready.
0:19 - Jefferson cannot clock it: the substitutes are running onto the field; the offense is not ready.
As discussed above, Jefferson should not have clocked it with 19 or 20 seconds left because there was time to run two plays.
After the second down running play, no one on the offense knew what is going to happen next. There was time to run two more plays, but the offense did not know what those two plays would be. With the crowd noise and confusion, no QB could have gotten the team ready to clock it before the 0:19 mark. (And for the reasons discussed above, no QB should have gotten the team ready to clock it at the 0:19 mark.)
Post 1 of 2.
19
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:52 am to just me
Terrence Toliver, Rueben Randle, and Russell Shepard start to arrive.
0:17 - Toliver arrives onscreen.
Terrence Toliver arrives onscreen at the 0:17 mark. He probably had to travel at least 35 yards to get there. (Distance down the field and into the field.) Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that it took him 4 seconds to run there. That means he left the sideline at around 0:21.
Thus, Jefferson would have seen subs running onto the field at around 0:21. Jefferson might even have seen them huddled around a coach at the 0:22 mark or 0:23 mark before they ran onto the field. In any event, by the 0:20 mark, Jefferson knew he could not clock it without incurring a penalty.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the players being substituted leave the field and the offense is set.
0:11 - Chris Faulk, Chase Clement, and James Stampley run off the field.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the players being replaced leave the field. That's going to take at least 4 seconds. Thus, Jefferson cannot clock it until at least the 0:07 mark. By that time, it will make more sense to just run the play. Moreover, clocking it would require Jefferson to countermand the staff's directions.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the offense is set.
0:04 - Ridley moving into position.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the offense is set without incurring a penalty. Jefferson tells Ridley where he needs to be, and Ridley finally gets into position right at the 0:03 mark. Thus, Jefferson cannot clock it until at least the 0:03 mark. By that time, it will make more sense to just run the play. Moreover, clocking it would require Jefferson to countermand the staff's directions.
Hebert decides to snap the ball without Jefferson's call.
0:03 - Hebert snaps the ball.
Hebert stated in an interview that he snapped the ball because he had flashbacks of the Ole Miss game. Hebert didn't want the game to expire without snapping the ball. Note: He stated that he took it upon himself to snap the ball; he didn't say that Jefferson called for it.
He did not snap the ball just before time expired with 1 second or even 2 seconds left. He snapped the ball with 3 seconds left.
(Note: Before the snap, the ball was placed just to the right of the hash marks. Jefferson's right foot is on the hash marks. Jefferson did not line up behind the LG or the LG-C gap.)
Should Jefferson have clocked it on this snap? It is at least as reasonable, and probably makes more sense, to run the play that was called rather than hope that the clock operator stops the clock immediately upon the ball hitting the ground. In any event, we'll never know what Jefferson would have done with the ball. Hebert decided to snap the ball before he heard Jefferson call for it.
The points are simple.
(1) Jefferson was correct in not immediately clocking the ball. Immediately clocking the ball would have been the wrong call, and it would have taken a down away from his coaches.
(2) Jefferson did not have an opportunity to immediately clock the ball without incurring a penalty. Substitutes were being sent onto the field before he could have clocked it.
ETA: Hebert took it upon himself to snap the ball with 3 seconds left, before he heard Jefferson call for it. Say what you want; however, players have to trust other players to do their job. Trust is a necessary trait of winning teams. We'll never know what might have happened in those last few seconds if Hebert had not had Ole Miss flashbacks.
ETA: There are at least three reasons why Jefferson should not have replaced Lee on second down. First, Lee had driven the team down the field, was warm, and should have taken the team into the endzone. Second, there is no compelling strategic reason to sub Jefferson for Lee at the two. LSU can run or throw with Lee in the game. Third, with no timeouts, three plays available, and Lee having the hot throwing hand, Lee should have stayed in to throw passes for second, and/or third, and/or fourth down. LSU could have played more passing downs than running downs.
Post 2 of 2.
0:17 - Toliver arrives onscreen.
Terrence Toliver arrives onscreen at the 0:17 mark. He probably had to travel at least 35 yards to get there. (Distance down the field and into the field.) Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that it took him 4 seconds to run there. That means he left the sideline at around 0:21.
Thus, Jefferson would have seen subs running onto the field at around 0:21. Jefferson might even have seen them huddled around a coach at the 0:22 mark or 0:23 mark before they ran onto the field. In any event, by the 0:20 mark, Jefferson knew he could not clock it without incurring a penalty.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the players being substituted leave the field and the offense is set.
0:11 - Chris Faulk, Chase Clement, and James Stampley run off the field.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the players being replaced leave the field. That's going to take at least 4 seconds. Thus, Jefferson cannot clock it until at least the 0:07 mark. By that time, it will make more sense to just run the play. Moreover, clocking it would require Jefferson to countermand the staff's directions.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the offense is set.
0:04 - Ridley moving into position.
Jefferson cannot clock it until the offense is set without incurring a penalty. Jefferson tells Ridley where he needs to be, and Ridley finally gets into position right at the 0:03 mark. Thus, Jefferson cannot clock it until at least the 0:03 mark. By that time, it will make more sense to just run the play. Moreover, clocking it would require Jefferson to countermand the staff's directions.
Hebert decides to snap the ball without Jefferson's call.
0:03 - Hebert snaps the ball.
Hebert stated in an interview that he snapped the ball because he had flashbacks of the Ole Miss game. Hebert didn't want the game to expire without snapping the ball. Note: He stated that he took it upon himself to snap the ball; he didn't say that Jefferson called for it.
He did not snap the ball just before time expired with 1 second or even 2 seconds left. He snapped the ball with 3 seconds left.
(Note: Before the snap, the ball was placed just to the right of the hash marks. Jefferson's right foot is on the hash marks. Jefferson did not line up behind the LG or the LG-C gap.)
Should Jefferson have clocked it on this snap? It is at least as reasonable, and probably makes more sense, to run the play that was called rather than hope that the clock operator stops the clock immediately upon the ball hitting the ground. In any event, we'll never know what Jefferson would have done with the ball. Hebert decided to snap the ball before he heard Jefferson call for it.
The points are simple.
(1) Jefferson was correct in not immediately clocking the ball. Immediately clocking the ball would have been the wrong call, and it would have taken a down away from his coaches.
(2) Jefferson did not have an opportunity to immediately clock the ball without incurring a penalty. Substitutes were being sent onto the field before he could have clocked it.
ETA: Hebert took it upon himself to snap the ball with 3 seconds left, before he heard Jefferson call for it. Say what you want; however, players have to trust other players to do their job. Trust is a necessary trait of winning teams. We'll never know what might have happened in those last few seconds if Hebert had not had Ole Miss flashbacks.
ETA: There are at least three reasons why Jefferson should not have replaced Lee on second down. First, Lee had driven the team down the field, was warm, and should have taken the team into the endzone. Second, there is no compelling strategic reason to sub Jefferson for Lee at the two. LSU can run or throw with Lee in the game. Third, with no timeouts, three plays available, and Lee having the hot throwing hand, Lee should have stayed in to throw passes for second, and/or third, and/or fourth down. LSU could have played more passing downs than running downs.
Post 2 of 2.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:55 am to just me
Excellent.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:55 am to just me
quote:
We'll never know what might have happened in those last few seconds if Hebert had not had Ole Miss flashbacks.
My best guess - repeat of Ole Miss 2009.
Agree with the rest of your post. The substitutions were a complete fail by the coaching staff.
This post was edited on 10/5/10 at 9:56 am
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:55 am to just me
360'X160' grassy [flat] knoll.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to just me
quote:
Jefferson cannot clock it until the offense is set
Correct!!!
And if I'm not mistaken, he also can't clock it from the shotgun!!!
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to just me
JJ had no business being on the field at that point.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to just me
Are you free to coach the team this Saturday?
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to McLemore
I need some close-ups of the look on Jefferson's face ... if I am to believe any part of your theory.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to McLemore
quote:I almost titled this thread: A Breakdown of the Zapruder Film
360'X160' grassy [flat] knoll.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to just me
Stop inundating us with logic and progression.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:58 am to just me
This +1000
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:59 am to just me
I just think the entire situation goes smoother with Lee.
Even on the final drive, we ran a little hurry up, everything seemed much more organized with Lee.
He'd complete a pass, and get everyone to the line. No reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same on the goal line.
And on first down, he threw it away to stop the clock. He could of done the same if required on 2nd and 3rd if nothing was available.
Lee has flaws (happy feet, back foot throws) but is more in control on the field. His one game management mistake- delay of game. The more he plays, the less those things happen IMO.
Even on the final drive, we ran a little hurry up, everything seemed much more organized with Lee.
He'd complete a pass, and get everyone to the line. No reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same on the goal line.
And on first down, he threw it away to stop the clock. He could of done the same if required on 2nd and 3rd if nothing was available.
Lee has flaws (happy feet, back foot throws) but is more in control on the field. His one game management mistake- delay of game. The more he plays, the less those things happen IMO.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 9:59 am to sec13rowBBseat28
quote:still comes down to this. here is where the coaches screwed up the most.
JJ had no business being on the field at that point.
but I know how much just me loves JJ, so I won't bash him in here, mostly because it hurts watching him try to defend JJ so much
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:01 am to just me
quote:
I almost titled this thread: A Breakdown of the Zapruder Film
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:01 am to tigergym
quote:
And if I'm not mistaken, he also can't clock it from the shotgun!!!
Not correct.. Thats a NFHS rule. In NCAA and NFL you are legally allowed to spike the ball from the shotgun formation.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:01 am to just me
quote:
ETA: There are at least three reasons why Jefferson should not have replaced Lee on second down. First, Lee had driven the team down the field, was warm, and should have taken the team into the endzone. Second, there is no compelling strategic reason to sub Jefferson for Lee at the two. LSU can run or throw with Lee in the game. Third, with no timeouts, three plays available, and Lee having the hot throwing hand, Lee should have stayed in to throw passes for second, and/or third, and/or fourth down. LSU could have played more passing downs than running downs.
I said in an earlier thread that 4th down is the only acceptable down to run it on there and I'll stand by that.
After seeing this thread, I think that you've lost it with your blind defense of Jefferson. Certainly he doesn't shoulder all the blame here. Whoever is calling for substitutions to be made (presumably Crowton) with the clock running is the one who really dropped the ball. There isn't time for substitutions.
That being said, it still doesn't explain why Jefferson fell on the ball
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:02 am to just me
Dude, get a life. You failed yesterday and all the above does is hammer home how clueless you are on this issue.
There is no explanation than the whole episode after Jefferson is tackled was a complete CLUSTERfrick/FUBAR!!! Jefferson played a key part in making it so. Just accept it.
Let me give it to you strait: 524-HELP Give them a call, they will be there for you.
There is no explanation than the whole episode after Jefferson is tackled was a complete CLUSTERfrick/FUBAR!!! Jefferson played a key part in making it so. Just accept it.
Let me give it to you strait: 524-HELP Give them a call, they will be there for you.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:02 am to just me
quote:
before he heard Jefferson call for it.
I noticed you left out the picture of Jefferson calling and clapping for the ball while simultaneously looking away a half second later.
Posted on 10/5/10 at 10:02 am to just me
I agree with everything. The fact that Miles repeatedly said, even yesterday that they should have clocked the ball after second down is very disturbing.
What should have been done (once they brought JJ into the game on 2nd down) was run the first play with a second play called. The second play has to be a pass play that is thrown into the end zone either complete for TD or incomplete to stop the clock. That would leave one last play from the one yard line to do whatever you want with whatever personnell you want.
The real stupidity was attempting to change personnell with the clock running and not having the 3rd down play called and the players ready to run it after Jefferson's second down run failed. This was all GARY CROWTON. His cuteness comes back to bite us over and over and over.
eta: Oh, and I also agree they should have never subbed in JJ at the end. it was the coaches outthinking themselves. You take a kid out who is locked in and in control of what's going on. Managing the clock and leading the team and bring in a guy who was sitting on the bench with his head down not paying attention and then throw him in there to go win it.
BAD STRATEGY.
What should have been done (once they brought JJ into the game on 2nd down) was run the first play with a second play called. The second play has to be a pass play that is thrown into the end zone either complete for TD or incomplete to stop the clock. That would leave one last play from the one yard line to do whatever you want with whatever personnell you want.
The real stupidity was attempting to change personnell with the clock running and not having the 3rd down play called and the players ready to run it after Jefferson's second down run failed. This was all GARY CROWTON. His cuteness comes back to bite us over and over and over.
eta: Oh, and I also agree they should have never subbed in JJ at the end. it was the coaches outthinking themselves. You take a kid out who is locked in and in control of what's going on. Managing the clock and leading the team and bring in a guy who was sitting on the bench with his head down not paying attention and then throw him in there to go win it.
BAD STRATEGY.
This post was edited on 10/5/10 at 10:07 am
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