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re: Explain it to me like I’m 5 - Running edition
Posted on 1/19/24 at 3:25 pm to idontyield
Posted on 1/19/24 at 3:25 pm to idontyield
There are three half plans in there: Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced. They all have different levels of involvement. I'm sure one would be a match for anyone except the most advanced runner.
Hal Higdon would be another good book with training guides in it. Both guys subscribe to the 80/20 rule.
Hal Higdon would be another good book with training guides in it. Both guys subscribe to the 80/20 rule.
0
Posted on 1/19/24 at 6:15 pm to Aubie Spr96
quote:
Goal is to get my 5K/10K pace below 7 mins
Same, ultimately I'd love to go sub 21:00 but that will take a while. 42 here. OP I have the same issue as you, hard to slow myself down. Got a 5k coming up in a couple of weeks so we'll see if there are any results from this 5 weeks or so of training I've been doing.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 7:39 pm to RandySavage
I went from having never run a 5k in 2021 to running a 50 miler in 2022.
Here’s what I learned:
- As mentioned, Zone 2 is the key. Get a HR monitor and use the Maffetone Method (180-Age). It’ll be way slower than you’re comfortable with and way slower in the summer.
- It took me 6-12 months for my body to really get used to running. I had nagging injuries, sore feet, etc. I wish I played the long game and increased mileage slower
- Run 2 to 3 times during the week at Zone 2 pace, then do a longer Saturday run
- Increase mileage at max 10% per week, I would actually do 10% every few weeks
- Fueling/nutrition is critical for anything over 90 min, less than 90 min you don’t need to fuel during the run
- Sign up for a race to motivate you and put your back up against the wall
- Running is mostly mental..Once you break through your current barrier (ex: 3 miles, 20 min, etc), you’ve unlocked the next level. I got crushed on a 50k (32 miles) and didn’t think I could go further, yet 1 month later I ran 50 miles.
- Once you get to a certain point, there’s really no difference between running 5 miles and 10-15 miles (just time)
Here’s what I learned:
- As mentioned, Zone 2 is the key. Get a HR monitor and use the Maffetone Method (180-Age). It’ll be way slower than you’re comfortable with and way slower in the summer.
- It took me 6-12 months for my body to really get used to running. I had nagging injuries, sore feet, etc. I wish I played the long game and increased mileage slower
- Run 2 to 3 times during the week at Zone 2 pace, then do a longer Saturday run
- Increase mileage at max 10% per week, I would actually do 10% every few weeks
- Fueling/nutrition is critical for anything over 90 min, less than 90 min you don’t need to fuel during the run
- Sign up for a race to motivate you and put your back up against the wall
- Running is mostly mental..Once you break through your current barrier (ex: 3 miles, 20 min, etc), you’ve unlocked the next level. I got crushed on a 50k (32 miles) and didn’t think I could go further, yet 1 month later I ran 50 miles.
- Once you get to a certain point, there’s really no difference between running 5 miles and 10-15 miles (just time)
Posted on 1/19/24 at 8:41 pm to BayouBengal23
quote:
I can push through the leg pain but my competitive nature won’t let me run 10-11 minute mile.
Why are you having leg pain? Youll get more efficient and heart rate will go down the more you adapt. Why do you need to
monitor heart rate?
Posted on 1/20/24 at 7:31 am to BayouBengal23
I’m certainly no expert but the best advice I ever got was:
Make your hard runs hard and your easy runs easy.
Zone 2 runs 2-3 x week has worked for me . I mix in some interval stuff intermittently.
Core workouts and yoga/stretching combined with slowing down most of my runs have limited the nagging injuries.
Make your hard runs hard and your easy runs easy.
Zone 2 runs 2-3 x week has worked for me . I mix in some interval stuff intermittently.
Core workouts and yoga/stretching combined with slowing down most of my runs have limited the nagging injuries.
Posted on 1/20/24 at 10:38 am to Aubie Spr96
What are your "hill repeats"? was this 6 hill runs that took 2min each? what grade is the hill?
if your threshold run is only 140-150 hr something is wrong or you just don't run hard.
BTW everyone knows you're almost 50. not sure why you always mention this.
if your threshold run is only 140-150 hr something is wrong or you just don't run hard.
BTW everyone knows you're almost 50. not sure why you always mention this.
Posted on 1/20/24 at 11:26 am to ks_nola
quote:
What are your "hill repeats"? was this 6 hill runs that took 2min each? what grade is the hill?
Yes. 6 x 2 mins with a 2 min or better cool down. 170+ HR on the sprints and back down to 140. Not sure on the grade, but I run in Vestavia Hills and Cahaba Heights. Not exactly flat.
quote:
If your threshold run is only 140-150 hr something is wrong or you just don't run hard.
Going off max HR and VO2 calculation. If there’s a better method, I’d love to read about it. I’ve considered doing a lactate test on my next VO2 test. Would that be beneficial?
quote:
BTW everyone knows you're almost 50. not sure why you always mention this.
Mainly because my HR is abnormally high based off the standard calculation of 220-age. That puts my max HR at 170 when in fact it’s 195. Age is important in HR discussions is it not? I’m told max HR will decrease with age.
Posted on 1/20/24 at 12:07 pm to Aubie Spr96
" 6 x 2 mins with a 2 min or better cool down. 170+ HR on the sprints and back down to 140. Not sure on the grade, but I run in Vestavia Hills and Cahaba Heights. Not exactly flat."
if this is a sprint i would think your HR would be pushing much closer to max.
from the all knowing google search - the Threshold Zone” where we get up to about 80-90% of our max heart rate. so for you at 195 max a 85% threshold is 165 not 140-150 which tells me you aren't running hard enough when you are suppose to which is pretty much the concept of zone 2 training?
i've asked before but what your measuring stick to say the zone 2 80/20 plan is working for you? is it your 5k got x% faster over a certain time frame or you HR number for your age is x% higher than the "norm".
several people comment about the zone 2 being so great but what is it measured against?
sure theres a correlation b/w age and heart rate but you age comments seems to follow statements about your pace. not sure if its a boast or a self-roast....
BTW i'm 46 never trained by hr. i just run so i'm pretty much an expert based on staying at a holiday inn once.
if this is a sprint i would think your HR would be pushing much closer to max.
from the all knowing google search - the Threshold Zone” where we get up to about 80-90% of our max heart rate. so for you at 195 max a 85% threshold is 165 not 140-150 which tells me you aren't running hard enough when you are suppose to which is pretty much the concept of zone 2 training?
i've asked before but what your measuring stick to say the zone 2 80/20 plan is working for you? is it your 5k got x% faster over a certain time frame or you HR number for your age is x% higher than the "norm".
several people comment about the zone 2 being so great but what is it measured against?
sure theres a correlation b/w age and heart rate but you age comments seems to follow statements about your pace. not sure if its a boast or a self-roast....
BTW i'm 46 never trained by hr. i just run so i'm pretty much an expert based on staying at a holiday inn once.
Posted on 1/20/24 at 12:45 pm to ks_nola
HR of 195 for a 50yr old has to be top 5% if not 1%. I am the same age and extremely active riding mtn bikes/running in actual mountains. I have never seen mine get over 182. I usually max out in the upper 170s.
Posted on 1/20/24 at 6:01 pm to idontyield
My cardiologist didn’t seem concerned or impressed. My Polar has read 196 a couple of times. I can’t sustain that for very long.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 9:19 am to BayouBengal23
Running after lifting was really difficult for me. The quality of the runs just was not there. I lift MWF and run T, Th, S now, which has been way more sustainable and the training has felt way better.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:28 pm to ks_nola
quote:
BTW everyone knows you're almost 50. not sure why you always mention this.
It helps me get a good mental image.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 10:48 am to ks_nola
quote:
several people comment about the zone 2 being so great but what is it measured against?
Aerobic fitness, think of it like a pyramid structure. Most of your work needs to be setting the base. Especially starting out, at least 80% of your workouts should be expanding the base level, or Z2 cardio.
To improve fitness, you need consistency, duration, and intensity. Don't increase any one of those too much at the same time. This is how I train on my Peloton using the power zone classes they have.
For example, if I ride 3-4 times a week, 2 of those will be a 45 minute endurance based class. You're never feeling gassed, but you can tell you're working out. Then a 3rd class, you might push a little harder, but not all out. The weekend is usually reserved for a longer, hour plus ride at an easier pace. The goal is to do the same endurance type workout, but for a longer period to let your body adjust to working at that same pace for longer.
To compare it to running, if you usually run 3-4x a week for 30-45 minutes at a 10 min/mile pace, you might try to run for only 30 minutes at a 9 min/mile pace on one of them. A slight increase in your tempo, and you can tell it is harder, but not going to kill you. Follow that with a longer run on the weekend. Go for an hour, but take it easy. Slow it down to an 11 min/mile pace and settle in for the longer duration.
The next week, you can either increase the intensity on the shorter run, think speed work, or increase the duration on the longer run, or add another 30 minute run into the mix. You would still keep your base runs the same. But you wouldn't do all 3 in the same week. When you get to where your tempo feels comfortable in your base runs, then slightly increase your pace. Move from a 10 minute pace to 9:30 and see how your body adjusts for a week or two. If that feels comfortable, then increase the pace a little on the shorter run. If that felt okay, run for 75 minutes on your long run the following week.
I admit it has been a while since I ran, since I do most of my aerobic work on the bike, but the training plans have a good bit of common sense crossover. The only way to get comfortable doing longer workouts is to gradually increase. The only way you can gradually increase those is by putting in the work during the week so you're prepared for the longer workout. The only way to speed up your faster runs is by being fitter from doing the base work. Without that, you'll feel gassed and burn out.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 2:01 pm to TU Rob
TU Rob -
I understand the concept of zone 2 training but i don't fully understand how one should measure progress. yes for a beginner pretty much any method of being active will lead to progress. in principal its a easy concept to follow go easy on easy days and hard on hard day(s). but i think that is where people fail. the easy is too slow/boring and the hard really isn't where it should be. so the benefit of each is never fully maximized. so it goes back to original question how should one measure that zone 2 training is working?
another confusing thing is terminology. people use words like tempo, threshold, "i'm in good shape", etc but each person has a different meaning when they used.
I understand the concept of zone 2 training but i don't fully understand how one should measure progress. yes for a beginner pretty much any method of being active will lead to progress. in principal its a easy concept to follow go easy on easy days and hard on hard day(s). but i think that is where people fail. the easy is too slow/boring and the hard really isn't where it should be. so the benefit of each is never fully maximized. so it goes back to original question how should one measure that zone 2 training is working?
another confusing thing is terminology. people use words like tempo, threshold, "i'm in good shape", etc but each person has a different meaning when they used.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 2:17 pm to ks_nola
quote:
i don't fully understand how one should measure progress. yes for a beginner pretty much any method of being active will lead to progress.
This is kind of where I am too. I guess for people who have no running background and would tend to injure themselves or burn out, a Z2 approach like Maffetone keeps them from doing too much; but I'm wary of any "system" that bases its training too much on HR, especially with a formula. I've got thousands of lifetime miles and know what easy feels like. Why do I need to check my watch to make sure I'm at 150bpm and not 160? What if it's hot out? Am I expected to slow my pace to a walk if it's too humid? How does that prepare me for races that are going to be hot and humid?
Posted on 1/22/24 at 2:38 pm to ks_nola
quote:
ks_nola
I hate to keep comparing to biking, but in that world it is FTP. The definition is what range of power output could you hold for one hour on your best day. Theoretically, this would be very tough, faster/harder than your training, but able to be completed. I guess something comparable would be certain race times when you're running. A 10k would be good, as that can be completed in usually under an hour for experienced runners. If you're used to jogging a 10 minute pace for 45 minutes to an hour a few days a week, the race time would be how fast can you get it done without stopping to walk any stretches. Something you can benchmark and repeat maybe 3-4 times a year to measure progress. This is where the shorter speedier runs come into play. I get it, running can be long and boring, especially doing Z2 training. But that push to challenge yourself and beat your previous time, if all you do is run that same 10 minute pace every run, you will eventually get a little faster at distance, but not like running faster for a half hour or so each week when your main focus is running faster.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 2:43 pm to ks_nola
quote:
so it goes back to original question how should one measure that zone 2 training is working?
Peter Attia on Zone 2
This will be more information than you probably need. My measurement that I am using is my VO2 max. I want to try and increase it as much as possible before I hit age 70.
I ran all last year using a different coach's HR targets: 140-160 for zone 2 and 180+ for VO2 max. While my VO2 did go up, it was marginal. I'm trying this for 6 months and will retest again in April to see if it moves the needle.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 3:19 pm to TU Rob
To measure, I think this is similar to what you're saying: Retest a set distance periodically (5K, 10K, etc.) at a given HR cap. If you can run a 5K in 30 minutes with a HR cap of 135 today, then in 3 months see if you can run the same course with the same HR cap quicker than before. There are more variables to running outside like temp/humidity, course, etc. It's probably the easiest to measure on a stationary bike. I used to train a lot on an air bike for 30 mins at a set HR cap (135). I would just repeat that workout every few weeks and see if I could end up accumulating more milage in 30 mins at that same HR cap.
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