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Started By
Message
re: How long before LIV golfers beg to come back to PGA?
Posted on 2/7/23 at 8:18 pm to 7UnderPar
Posted on 2/7/23 at 8:18 pm to 7UnderPar
quote:
When Norman is removed the 2 tours will reconcile. Probably take another 3 years or so
This is what I’m thinking will happen. Both sides will realize it’s mutually beneficial to merge and they’ll get together.
1
Posted on 2/7/23 at 8:43 pm to wutangfinancial
quote:
I’m not the target audience because I even watch the Korn Ferry and college golf early in the week. But they could have done amazing stuff with YouTube. No way the WB HS the resources for innovative and differentiated broadcasts.
Trying to put my objective, professional, sports business hat on, if the options were to move the product to CW or stay on YouTube, then they should have stayed on YouTube. I can’t imagine the sponsorship dollars will be anything but paltry for ~200 hours of live action content annually for a product that was getting fewer than 100K viewers on the most ubiquitous service in the world. From a marketing channel management perspective, that doesn’t seem savvy.
I believe LIV also still has to pay their own production costs (if that isn’t a signal for the value of this thing…), so in a weird sense, the production values will probably be better than if CW took it on entirely.
It will also be interesting to see what effect the Netflix series has on things. The word is that it’s excellent, and it did feature several LIV players.
This post was edited on 2/7/23 at 9:34 pm
Posted on 2/7/23 at 8:52 pm to tigerinthebueche
quote:
This is what I’m thinking will happen. Both sides will realize it’s mutually beneficial to merge and they’ll get together.
Potentially, though the way things are shaping up, it will have to be the LIV guys who come back hat in hand and take their lumps.
Their revenue and cash flow multiples are laughable and are looking to be so for at least several years. The entire theoretical “value” of the LIV enterprise right now is tied up in the franchise value of the twelve teams, and Tiger, Rory, JT, Rahm, Spieth, etc., etc. are going to tell the LIV guys to get bent if Poulter, Bubba, Phil, and the like try to get them to buy in at some absurd value.
LIV needs to get about half of the current top 20 in the world this year to forestall a collapse, though that league will likely zombie drag on for at least a few years (potentially until those 5 year contracts are up). I’d guess the Tour at that point probably integrates some of the team format and expanded international footprint, re-capitalizes the teams from the ground up (so the current LIV equity owners get nothing), and calls it a day.
This post was edited on 2/7/23 at 8:56 pm
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:04 pm to nicholastiger
I wondered this recently as well.
Everyone already knew once a golfer went to LIV that they’d be internationally irrelevant since nobody watches or cares about LIV. But to see all they did was basically break even is pretty bad. Especially considering the poor product they put out. I guess it’s how long the Saudis just want to pay the tab, but you have to think a lot of these guys are second guessing their decision
Everyone already knew once a golfer went to LIV that they’d be internationally irrelevant since nobody watches or cares about LIV. But to see all they did was basically break even is pretty bad. Especially considering the poor product they put out. I guess it’s how long the Saudis just want to pay the tab, but you have to think a lot of these guys are second guessing their decision
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:28 pm to Zzyzx
quote:
But to see all they did was basically break even is pretty bad
Breaking even would have been a monumental success. They lost hundreds of millions.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 9:40 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
Trying to put my objective, professional, sports business hat on, if the options were to move the product to CW or stay on YouTube, then they should have stayed on YouTube. I can’t imagine the sponsorship dollars will be anything but paltry for ~200 hours of live action content annually for a product that was getting fewer than 100K viewers on the most ubiquitous service in the world. From a marketing channel management perspective, that doesn’t seem savvy.
I get why they are chasing American TV money but i just do not see it being very realistic that Americans change their viewing habits.
The PGA has such a leg up with the schedule. Every golfer knows that on Saturday and Sunday, they have golf to toss on as background noise.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 9:50 am to lsufball19
quote:
Breaking even would have been a monumental success. They lost hundreds of millions.
Yep, all of those expenses in having to over pay for everything to even get it off the ground there is no way they will ever turn a profit.
LIV is like WCW in the 90s. Open checkbook to lure current and past stars to make them look legit. But the guaranteed contracts and mostly over the hill golfers will most likely lead to a lesser product in time.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 2:09 pm to RummelTiger
quote:
Basically breaks-eveN
This did not happen. They had essentially zero revenue.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 4:00 pm to DallasTiger
quote:
LIV Golf lawyers admit tour generated "virtually zeo" revenue in first season
I'm not saying LIV will or will not ever be successful but a lot of companies/business ventures don't make money in the first year.
This post was edited on 2/8/23 at 4:02 pm
Posted on 2/8/23 at 4:22 pm to Hat Tricks
quote:
I'm not saying LIV will or will not ever be successful but a lot of companies/business ventures don't make money in the first year.
The lawyer wasn't talking about profits, he was talking about revenue. From the way it sounds, they spent probably close to a billion dollars last year and didn't hardly even get any revenue in return. That is unfathomable for any startup. People need to quit comparing this to Amazon or Uber as it is a completely different animal.
This post was edited on 2/8/23 at 7:22 pm
Posted on 2/8/23 at 4:24 pm to Hat Tricks
quote:
I'm not saying LIV will or will not ever be successful but a lot of companies/business ventures don't make money in the first year.
Something seems off with the lawyer's statement. I'd imagine they operated at a huge loss, not virtually zero. I also have a tough time believing they generated virtually zero revenue. They clearly sold tickets and made ad revenue on YT. So, if he meant to say profit, I feel like virtually zero would be a win for LIV. If he meant revenue, that doesn't sound right either.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 6:15 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
not virtually zero
He said virtually zero revenue. Revenue =/= profit margin
quote:I think when you compare that to the money spent, the revenue was a small fraction compared to their expenses. IIRC they were only selling like 5000 tickets to their events and golf influencers on YT draw more eyes than most of their events did, and there were only 8 of them, so 24 total rounds of YT content. It wouldn’t shock me if they made “close to zero” (relatively speaking) revenue in year 1
zero. I also have a tough time believing they generated virtually zero revenue. They clearly sold tickets and made ad revenue on YT.
These were their average viewership #s fwiw
104k – London
90k – Portland
76k – Bedminster
117k – Boston
61k – Chicago
21k – Bangkok
27k – Jeddah
40k – Miami
This post was edited on 2/8/23 at 6:22 pm
Posted on 2/8/23 at 6:48 pm to lsufball19
quote:
I think when you compare that to the money spent, the revenue was a small fraction compared to their expenses
Right, that's my point. Revenue compared to expenses is profit. They definitely had positive revenue but definitely no profit. They likely were hundreds of millions in the red.
Posted on 2/8/23 at 10:32 pm to nicholastiger
I spent a couple decades dealing with people in the Middle East who were ridiculously wealthy. They weren’t anywhere near the richest people in the area. They could lose 5 billion a year for at least 10 years and not miss it.
If they buy the top talent for 10 years they’ll cripple the PGA.
If they buy the top talent for 10 years they’ll cripple the PGA.
Posted on 2/9/23 at 6:13 am to llfshoals
Hell the Saudis have more money than the US Government and we lose trillions of dollars a year and according to the Biden administration we are doing great! Saudis ain't going nowhere they will force the PGA to raise the purses even higher to keep players happy given the fact that they are setting on a billion dollars cash. Players need to shut up and play as this generation of players whether its PGA or LIV are making more money than they ever have in the history of the sport.
Posted on 2/9/23 at 9:27 am to llfshoals
quote:
I spent a couple decades dealing with people in the Middle East who were ridiculously wealthy. They weren’t anywhere near the richest people in the area. They could lose 5 billion a year for at least 10 years and not miss it.
If they buy the top talent for 10 years they’ll cripple the PGA.
to what aim? Like I said earlier, the greatest assist the PGA has is that it is on every weekend at around the same time. People might not know who is playing or where it is but it will be there for them. The PGA is a warm blanket for dads to nap to.
Sports washing works with F-1 and soccer because it doesn't change fans viewing habits. They can pump money into F-1 and make the experience better or buy talent for a club
LIV might work internationally but I don't see it ever doing huge numbers in the states.
This post was edited on 2/9/23 at 9:28 am
Posted on 2/9/23 at 11:26 am to Dire Wolf
I just saw a report that they had close to zero revenue 
Probably PGA propaganda but hilarious if that’s even remotely close to accurate
Probably PGA propaganda but hilarious if that’s even remotely close to accurate
Posted on 2/9/23 at 12:12 pm to nicholastiger
The Saudis make about 200-300 million a day. Do they really care?
Posted on 2/9/23 at 12:32 pm to llfshoals
quote:
If they buy the top talent for 10 years they’ll cripple the PGA.
No kidding Capt. Obvious. Everyone knows that the PGA can't compete with this kind of hostile takeover. Especially with an entity that doesn't care if they ever turn a profit or not because that is low on the totem pole of their goals in all of this.
This post was edited on 2/9/23 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 2/9/23 at 12:53 pm to RedHawk
quote:
No kidding Capt. Obvious. Everyone knows that the PGA can't compete with this kind of hostile takeover. Especially with an entity that doesn't care if they ever turn a profit or not because that is low on the totem pole of their goals in all of this.
Why would even one professional golfer care how much money these billionaires will make? LIV Golf created free agency.
Every single golfer owes their newfound wealth to LIV Golf. Jay Monahan was never going to get off his tax-exempt charity wallet and share the stupid amount of profits from the PGA. LIV made him do it. Every golfer knows this but the PGA has been on the Old boy's plantation so long they have to speak out both sides of their mouth. Alfalfa is simply the biggest hypocrite on that list.
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