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re: With all the trade talk on here and FB groups.Shouldnt finding the head coach come first?
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:12 pm to TigerinATL
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:12 pm to TigerinATL
Do you want to extend Jrue say 4 more years at the same value, around $25M/yr?
Not sure I can say I'd absolutely want to do that. I love Jrue, but i honestly don't think he's the veteran leader we expected him to be. Maybe he is, i don't know. I think jrue would rather be quiet and let his play lead the way, and while every team needs that, we need a vocal veteran leader. JJ was that guy this year, not Jrue.
Not sure I can say I'd absolutely want to do that. I love Jrue, but i honestly don't think he's the veteran leader we expected him to be. Maybe he is, i don't know. I think jrue would rather be quiet and let his play lead the way, and while every team needs that, we need a vocal veteran leader. JJ was that guy this year, not Jrue.
2
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:13 pm to TeddyPadillac
As with any trade, it depends on the value you are getting offered for him.
If we are getting offered high value, you trade him.
If not, you attempt to extend him and then revisit all of this in a year or two.
If we are getting offered high value, you trade him.
If not, you attempt to extend him and then revisit all of this in a year or two.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:23 pm to TeddyPadillac
Extending Jrue for less than what he costs us now doesn't really hurt us until we pay Zion. Why is everyone so worked up about paying or not paying players money over their vocal leadership? Find me assets that we can get at 25 mil that will do what he can do and I'll say let him walk. JJ was that guy and we were able to pay him and have Jrue. Why does it matter if he isn't vocal enough and can still ball out?
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:27 pm to Fun Bunch
Well i'm in the i hope we make a deal with GSW and get the #2 pick and the Minny pick. I'm fine with taking on Wiggins for 3 years.
People can talk about a down draft all they want, every draft has at least 3 all star level players in it usually, just need to find them. I'd rather two shots at top 10 picks than Jrue.
Honest question here, do you think Jrue is far superior on the court for us compared to Josh Hart? Is there really that big of a dropoff when you substitute Hart for Jrue, on both ends of the court?
yes Jrue is better, but i honestly don't think he's that much better, especially when you consider that Jrue is just a role player on this team with BI and Zion as the lead dogs going forward.
People can talk about a down draft all they want, every draft has at least 3 all star level players in it usually, just need to find them. I'd rather two shots at top 10 picks than Jrue.
Honest question here, do you think Jrue is far superior on the court for us compared to Josh Hart? Is there really that big of a dropoff when you substitute Hart for Jrue, on both ends of the court?
yes Jrue is better, but i honestly don't think he's that much better, especially when you consider that Jrue is just a role player on this team with BI and Zion as the lead dogs going forward.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:31 pm to TeddyPadillac
Ok I think we finally got rid of Bmark and his anti BI stuff sooo please tell me what Wiggins will do for us.
1. Is Wiggins better than Jrue? No so why pay him 5 million more AND be stuck with him for 3 years when Jrue can walk.
2. What makes you think holding up the cap with a lesser player in Wiggins gets us closer to a championship.
3. The #2 pick doesn't guarantee you an all star player and this is even a less likely draft.
1. Is Wiggins better than Jrue? No so why pay him 5 million more AND be stuck with him for 3 years when Jrue can walk.
2. What makes you think holding up the cap with a lesser player in Wiggins gets us closer to a championship.
3. The #2 pick doesn't guarantee you an all star player and this is even a less likely draft.
This post was edited on 9/21/20 at 2:34 pm
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:37 pm to TeddyPadillac
Jrue's superiority only matters to the value on this team and the value others will give for him. Do you understand that? We will not trade Jrue for potential. He already IS that potential. If we trade Jrue it will be for 1 or 2 players that would be MORE valuable to our future. Andrew Wiggins and a potential pick is immediately less valuable.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:41 pm to TeddyPadillac
Not to mention look at ANY high profile trade and tell me how many teams trading their star take 1 draft pick and a player that cost MORE than the BETTER player being given up. Its just completely terrible value.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:44 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
1. Is Wiggins better than Jrue? No so why pay him 5 million more AND be stuck with him for 3 years when Jrue can walk.
That's not the question. Is Wiggins, #2, and next year top 10 pick better than Jrue?
quote:
2. What makes you think holding up the cap with a lesser player in Wiggins gets us closer to a championship.
Not sure what this means, holding up the cap. I'm not concerned about the cap in the least bit. We aren't a big name FA destination. We have tons of draft capital, and i'd like more, not just to use it in the draft, but to use it to acquire better assets in trades.
quote:
3. The #2 pick doesn't guarantee you and all star player and this is even a less likely draft.
No it doesn't, but I would rather the chance at two top 10 picks as opposed to keeping Jrue. My reasoning is more in line with the fact that I think Hart can give us mostly what Jrue does.
And i'll say it again, every draft has at least 3 all star caliber players. don't tell me it's a down draft. The only reason people say that is b/c there isn't a clear cut #1, and we've seen so little of the prospects. That doesn't mean it's a down year, just that there is more uncertainty than normal. Even in the worst drafts, there's always an allstar in the top 3 picks..... ALWAYS.
The last draft to not have an allstar in the first 3 picks was 1998, with the Candyman, Bibby, LaFrentz. Pretty sure anyone would be happy with drafting Bibby, and there were 3 hall of famers drafted in the next 7 picks.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:50 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Jrue's superiority only matters to the value on this team and the value others will give for him. Do you understand that? We will not trade Jrue for potential. He already IS that potential. If we trade Jrue it will be for 1 or 2 players that would be MORE valuable to our future. Andrew Wiggins and a potential pick is immediately less valuable.
I've already been through this with you.
You want to win a championship next year. I don't care about that. You think Jrue is pivotal to our success next year and we wont' get equal value back regarding next years success. I don't care about that. I'm concerned with building for the future and setting ourselves up to make key moves in the near future.
Jrue is a role player on this team now. He's not that important. He's not good enough to make us a playoff team on his own, much less a championship team, but he is capable of pushing a contending team over the edge.
Our success next season is heavily tied to BI and Zion. Everyone else is just a small piece of the pie. If Jrue was a bigger piece, we wouldn't have finished with 32 wins just about every season he's been here. And i say all this with nothign but love for Jrue.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:51 pm to TeddyPadillac
Ok the problem here is that the Pelicans just like most every team are tying to build for a Championship. You saying " it doesn't matter if take Wiggins we aren't competing" is just dumb. Why would we purposely make moves that could hurt our future? And once again your answer is NO Wiggins and #2 isn't better than Jrue. Because Wiggins cost more, isn't as good, and no one thinks the #2 pick in this years draft will be better than Jrue the next 2-3 years.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:53 pm to Dantheman504
Do you really not want us to try and compete for a championship with BI and Zion? The way you are talking sounds like you want to waste their next 3 years here and then boom somehow win a championship year 4 before they all leave and their contracts are up. I mean have you thought of any long term implications with any of this?
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:57 pm to TeddyPadillac
Why is it this stupid arse argument again?? I want to make moves that better our team NOW, and that will eventually get us to championship in 2-3 years. How is that winning now??? Do you know how teams are built?? You aren't just mediocre for 5 years and then wow championship I mean wtf bro. We also have a window with BI and Zion for the next few years. You want to waste 3 years of that for a chance at a useless #2 pick and take on Andrew Wiggins when we already have 7 first round picks the next 5 years?? fricking stupid.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 2:59 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
You saying " it doesn't matter if take Wiggins we aren't competing" is just dumb.
competing for what?
If we made that trade, i'd expect us to finish with a winning record assuming BI and ZIon are healthy.
Assuming minimal changes to the team, let's just say a JJ trade to Brooklyn, how many games are you thinking we are going to win next year? I'd be happy being above .500, and i would'nt expect more than 46 wins at best.
If we traded Jrue for Wiggins, i'd expect the same exact thing.
quote:
Why would we purposely make moves that could hurt our future?
How on earth is adding the #2 pick this year and a top 10 pick next year hurting our future? We are trading away a guy that won't be in the NBA in 5 years b/c of his age for this, not Jayson Tatum.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:05 pm to TeddyPadillac
Because Jrue is better than Wiggins in many aspects. We can use the draft, add role players, and potentially win a championship with Jrue. We could also trade him for 1 extremely good player or 2 very good players. This team will never win a championship with Andrew Wiggins on it and could get about 5 better returns than that deal including letting Jrue walk and having 26 million free. Period. It won't happen mainly because our FO isn't that retarded.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:28 pm to Dantheman504
calm down Dan.
You have this assumption that i don't want to win.
I expect this team to get better every year.
Jrue is a role player. BI and Zion are the catalyst to our success for the next 5 years.
You thinking that Zion should be competing for a championship next year is just ridiculous. Name me another guy in his 2nd year that led his team to a championship? Now remove the other hall of famers from Magic and Birds teams and see how good they would have been those years.
Durant didn't get to 50 wins until his third year. Oh yeah and they drafted Harden 3rd overall that year. Went from 23 wins to 50. Made the finals his 4th year.
Lebron won 42 in year 2. 50 wins year 3 and made the playoffs, finals appearance in year 4. Cleveland lost Lebron, b/c they were incapable of attracting FA's, and they had no draft capital. They had the #10 pick after Lebron, and it was a bust. They had zero picks the following year, picked at #25 the next year, and had zero picks the following year. That's the 4 drafts after Lebron for Cleveland. So they completed wasted opportunities to get better through the draft, and it's probably the #1 reason why Lebron went to the Heat. Maybe if they had the chance to draft Igoudala and Danny Grainger the two years after drafting Lebron, or a Carl Landry or Glen Davis in year 4 of Lebron, the NBA would have been much different, but they didn't give themselves that chance. They made a bunch of stupid win now moves that never really worked.
It doesn't matter what we do in the draft or FA or trades, we should be a 50 win team for the foreseeable future by 2022. I expect to win around 45 games next year, regardless of what we do this offseason. We could run it back and that would be my expectation. We could trade Jrue for Wiggins and that would be my expectation.
Call me stupid, but i don't think Wiggins being swapped out for Jrue is that big of a deal as far as our success goes. Wiggins is 25 years old. Oladipo made his big jump at 25, after he was traded.
You have this assumption that i don't want to win.
I expect this team to get better every year.
Jrue is a role player. BI and Zion are the catalyst to our success for the next 5 years.
You thinking that Zion should be competing for a championship next year is just ridiculous. Name me another guy in his 2nd year that led his team to a championship? Now remove the other hall of famers from Magic and Birds teams and see how good they would have been those years.
Durant didn't get to 50 wins until his third year. Oh yeah and they drafted Harden 3rd overall that year. Went from 23 wins to 50. Made the finals his 4th year.
Lebron won 42 in year 2. 50 wins year 3 and made the playoffs, finals appearance in year 4. Cleveland lost Lebron, b/c they were incapable of attracting FA's, and they had no draft capital. They had the #10 pick after Lebron, and it was a bust. They had zero picks the following year, picked at #25 the next year, and had zero picks the following year. That's the 4 drafts after Lebron for Cleveland. So they completed wasted opportunities to get better through the draft, and it's probably the #1 reason why Lebron went to the Heat. Maybe if they had the chance to draft Igoudala and Danny Grainger the two years after drafting Lebron, or a Carl Landry or Glen Davis in year 4 of Lebron, the NBA would have been much different, but they didn't give themselves that chance. They made a bunch of stupid win now moves that never really worked.
It doesn't matter what we do in the draft or FA or trades, we should be a 50 win team for the foreseeable future by 2022. I expect to win around 45 games next year, regardless of what we do this offseason. We could run it back and that would be my expectation. We could trade Jrue for Wiggins and that would be my expectation.
Call me stupid, but i don't think Wiggins being swapped out for Jrue is that big of a deal as far as our success goes. Wiggins is 25 years old. Oladipo made his big jump at 25, after he was traded.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:32 pm to Dantheman504
How much does Batum have left in the tank? I wonder if you could get Charlotte to take Wiggins for Batum and a pick.
Warriors get Jrue
Pels get Batum, #2 and Minnesota pick.
Charlotte gets Wiggins and #13 or a future 1st.
It's hard to judge Batum by recent stats considering the dumpster fire he's been burning in, he used to be a very solid 2 way wing that would defend the top wing player and also was a good secondary creator averaging almost 6 assists per game for several years at his peak.
If Batum is just rusty rather than rotten, he could be a decent Jrue replacement that would probably be cheaper to resign than Jrue would be to extend. Also, to Teddy's point about will Jrue even take an extension, if he won't you need to start looking to trade him and find some sort of replacement.
Warriors get Jrue
Pels get Batum, #2 and Minnesota pick.
Charlotte gets Wiggins and #13 or a future 1st.
It's hard to judge Batum by recent stats considering the dumpster fire he's been burning in, he used to be a very solid 2 way wing that would defend the top wing player and also was a good secondary creator averaging almost 6 assists per game for several years at his peak.
If Batum is just rusty rather than rotten, he could be a decent Jrue replacement that would probably be cheaper to resign than Jrue would be to extend. Also, to Teddy's point about will Jrue even take an extension, if he won't you need to start looking to trade him and find some sort of replacement.
This post was edited on 9/21/20 at 3:34 pm
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:33 pm to TigerinATL
I did not realize Batum was only 31. I thought he was like 38, no lie.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:35 pm to TeddyPadillac
All I'm trying to say is that there are several players we can get besides Wiggins that are cheaper and would help us more in the future. Getting the #2 pick doesn't justify that fact. We already have so many draft picks and once again can still turn some of those into lottery picks without trading Jrue. If we trade Jrue it will be for a player or players that will contibute long term. Your plan is to take on Wiggins in order to land a solid player with the #2 pick. You haven't exactly said Wiggins will make us better and even said the opposite pretty much by saying it doesn't matter what he does because we aren't competing. Our FO will trade Jrue for the best players available NOT for the best draft pick available. That's all I'm saying. Lonzo? Redick? Yeah we may take draft picks for them but not Jrue, and not to lose cap space and flexibility in the process.
Edit: There are also players more expensive that can help more. I'd almost rather trade Jrue AND a 1st for a better player then trade Jrue for a 1st and worse player.
Edit: There are also players more expensive that can help more. I'd almost rather trade Jrue AND a 1st for a better player then trade Jrue for a 1st and worse player.
This post was edited on 9/21/20 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:45 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Getting the #2 pick doesn't justify that fact
I think it does. That's where we differ.
I'll say it again. Every draft pick since 1998 has had an allstar in the top 3 picks. There's no sure fire #1 pick here, but history tells us someone in the top 3 will be a stud, so if you had the #2 pick, you can almost say that you have a 33% chance of drafting an all star. Is that not enticing to you?
quote:
We already have so many draft picks and once again can still turn some of those into lottery picks without trading Jrue.
We have no future top 10 picks. You keep saying we have 7 picks in the next 5 years. None of those picks are expected to be anythign better than late teens. This is our year to not frick up in the draft and make our team better for the future. This is how take a team to the next level, drafting the next star to play with the ones you already have. It's a whole lot easier for the #2 pick to sit back and play behind BI and Zion and have the pressure on those guys while he develops as opposed to being thrown into the fire on a shitty team as the savior.
quote:
Your plan is to take on Wiggins in order to land a solid player with the #2 pick. You haven't exactly said Wiggins will make us better and even said the opposite pretty much by saying it doesn't matter what he does because we aren't competing.
Competing in my book is not the same as yours. I expect to compete in the first round of the playoffs. You have unrealistic expectations of competing for a championship.
And i already stated that i don't think our record is any different next year with Wiggins compared to Jrue. That doesn't mean that Wiggins is as good or better than Jrue, b/c he isn't, but i dont' think it makes a difference to our record b/c they are 3rd bananas on our team, not the lead man.
quote:
Edit: There are also players more expensive that can help more. I'd almost rather trade Jrue AND a 1st for a better player then trade Jrue for a 1st and worse player.
I agree, like Jaylen Brown.
Posted on 9/21/20 at 3:47 pm to TigerinATL
If we can get the #2 and re sign Batum at a good price that wouldn't be a bad deal. I really wanted us to go after him before he ended up on Charlotte. I'm also not sure what he has left but may get revival from leaving Charlotte.
It just isn't worth it to trade Jrue for less cap space and not as good of a player. If Batum agrees to re sign here for a good price then I'm all for it. But i'd rather Jrue walk and have 26 mil cap space over taking a chance with #2 and being stuck with Wiggins for several years at a high price.
It just isn't worth it to trade Jrue for less cap space and not as good of a player. If Batum agrees to re sign here for a good price then I'm all for it. But i'd rather Jrue walk and have 26 mil cap space over taking a chance with #2 and being stuck with Wiggins for several years at a high price.
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