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re: I have a quiet envy of religious people
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:09 am to nola000
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:09 am to nola000
quote:
I have to say though, I sometimes feel very judged by the religious when they know this of me.
Don’t let this concern you. If you know the general public, you know “they know not what they do”.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:46 am to the808bass
quote:
You didn’t choose to disagree. You’re only disagreeing because you’re being forced to. Or something stupid like that.
What?
I grew up believing in God. It was the status quo. I got older and seeked to strengthen my faith by learning things that dispelled any creeping doubts or holes. In doing that i only learned more and more that made believing in something i dont think is true impossible.
Id ask what personal experience beyond a warm feeling in your tummy while praying or "i prayed and then later on this thing happened that was very similar to the subject matter of my prayer". If you truly have some experience where, while awake and sober, God's booming voice bellowed down to you or he appeared to you in the woods or something then bully for you. I never had that after 21 years of faith.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:49 am to AGreySlate
quote:
Care to elaborate?
I was a happier, more peaceful person when i believed in Christ and God.
I dont have that belief anymore. I didnt lose it flippantly. It was a painful process for me that shook me completely. And i cant just forget all the research and thinking that its built on. And the only way i could is if i pretended to, and im not sure that is even a thing.
This post was edited on 6/24/20 at 8:51 am
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:53 am to Hester Carries
I’m curious what information you learned that caused you to reject the Faith.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I’m curious what information you learned that caused you to reject the Faith.
Not gonna go down that rabbit hole. I wouldnt want to infect someone else's faith, nor would you be able to counter all those points.
Ive read and listened and spoken with brilliant christians. In the end they all suspend the logical parts of their brains and say "you cant worry about that fact or that contradiction. You need faith. Just believe" and thats such a disappointment.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 8:59 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:There is nothing “psychologically abusive” about the truth. The doctrine of hell is intrinsically tied to the doctrine of God’s justice. Punishment for what we deserve isn’t any more “psychology abusive” than telling someone they will get the death penalty for murder.
Moreover, there’s no need to ever fret that those we love who didn’t believe are in a hell somewhere which is easily the most psychologically abusive concept ever conceived by humans.
Your concern must rest more on what you think we deserve, but that is either an ignorance of God’s holy character and our sinful natures or a rejection of Biblical truth in unbelief.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:00 am to Hester Carries
quote:
Not gonna go down that rabbit hole. I wouldnt want to infect someone else's faith, nor would you be able to counter all those points. Ive read and listened and spoken with brilliant christians. In the end they all suspend the logical parts of their brains and say "you cant worry about that fact or that contradiction. You need faith. Just believe" and thats such a disappointment
Are there no other aspects of your life where you don’t know something for sure but have faith it’s true or will occur?
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:02 am to EKG
quote:
You can have it too.
I can't, not right now anyway. My beliefs only works with empirical evidence.
If almighty God and Jesus wants me to know they exist, give me actual evidence. Seems that would be quite easy for them. But I'm sure there's a line in the Bible to address why they don't. There's always something in the Bible to address doubt and such.
I feel religion was created for two reasons. Power and fear of the afterlife.
Don't get me wrong here, I think most churches and religious organizations do great work and charity (don't get me started on tv evangelists and the like).
I'm in the same boat as the OP. I have prayed when I needed it, which makes me a hypocrite.
This post was edited on 6/24/20 at 9:04 am
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:06 am to udtiger
quote:
The KNOWING what you believe is right, despite everything, and finding solace and comfort in that.
Not sure what the bold part refers to. I came to my faith based on a reasoned process. I do not ignore anything in the approach. The place I diverted to faith in God is the point many divert to non-faith - neither path has empirical evidence to support that decision. I just believed that there was so much evidence in favor of a creator up to that point that there must be one.
Once I stepped off at that "point of faith" God had revealed himself to me more and more.
By the way as others have said, there is still room for you, no matter your sins.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:10 am to Dawgfanman
quote:
Are there no other aspects of your life where you don’t know something for sure but have faith it’s true or will occur?
I wouldnt define my current mental status of christian theology as "dont know something for sure". Thats your stance.
And no, to answer your question im not sure that there are things i believe in that i dont actually believe in lol.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:11 am to udtiger
You are hiding behind the excuses
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:13 am to i am dan
Credit to the OP, for sincere expression. One which I share. Wish I was physically capable of typing what I would like to share, but just too difficult.
I have begged the lord God almighty to come into my heart. Still trying.
I have begged the lord God almighty to come into my heart. Still trying.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:13 am to nola000
quote:
As long as they're taught that making other people feel bad will make you feel worse, it's mission accomplished.
That's not morality, it's just an internal reward mechanism. And what do you say to the person who doesn't feel worse when he makes others feel bad? Some people feel better when they make others feel bad; I guess they're acting in their own moral framework.
Which goes back to proving exactly what you were trying to refute.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:19 am to nola000
quote:
I have to say though, I sometimes feel very judged by the religious when they know this of me.
So what if they judge you?
Newsflash, EVERYONE you meet and know judges you.
There are some really good Christians and there are some bad people who falsely claim to be Christians, it happens.
If you TRULY seek Christ and accept him, the people who judge and doubt you won't matter one bit anyway.
If you REALLY accept Christ, he will accept you right back.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:22 am to udtiger
quote:
not Christian, I know.
But I am jealous of the peace and certainty very religious people (of any faith [Christian, Jewish, Muslim]) have.
The KNOWING what you believe is right, despite everything, and finding solace and comfort in that.
Lucky
Kinda like the old version of the Movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", huh, ud? The 'snatched' have that 'come join us...it's peaceful' look in their eyes.
You're honest. You'll do fine in the long run.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:23 am to nola000
quote:
We are all born with different capacities.
Look, I know movies aren't real life, but just for fun, watch "Sergeant York".
There's a great scene in that movie having to do with Alvin York's religious conversion that is very powerful.
It literally has nothing to do with anything, but I love the way it illustrates a very strong, wild, prideful persons' path to God and the scene where he is surrounded by family and loved ones and the Pastor points to the floor, York falls to his knees is very powerful.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:31 am to udtiger
You don't have to feel this way, buddy!
Make a game out of it. It goes like this: whenever you find a religious person that makes you envious, go find a person from another denomination. Then, THAT person will be happy to explain in full why the person that made you envious is actually going to Hell.
See? You wouldn't be envious about going to Hell would you?
YOU'RE WELCOME.
Make a game out of it. It goes like this: whenever you find a religious person that makes you envious, go find a person from another denomination. Then, THAT person will be happy to explain in full why the person that made you envious is actually going to Hell.
See? You wouldn't be envious about going to Hell would you?
YOU'RE WELCOME.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 9:45 am to Hester Carries
quote:Try me.
Not gonna go down that rabbit hole. I wouldnt want to infect someone else's faith, nor would you be able to counter all those points.
quote:I've been defending the Faith for a few decades. While I'm not a brilliant theologian, I have heard pretty much every argument against Christianity and so far I haven't seen an argument that can't be addressed.
Ive read and listened and spoken with brilliant christians. In the end they all suspend the logical parts of their brains and say "you cant worry about that fact or that contradiction. You need faith. Just believe" and thats such a disappointment.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 10:40 am to nola000
quote:I believe the argument is pretty sound that there must be a beginning or a first cause.
You can walk this back as far as you want and the deists will always try and end the journey at 'God'. But then I would ask, what created God? What created the creator of God? Etc. Can there be an endpoint? Logic dictates that there can't.
In logic, you can't have an infinite regress: you would not be able to affirm the conclusion because the premise is never proved as each premise relies on an infinite number of contingent premises, meaning that the conclusion cannot be proven or justified.
Likewise, if there is an effect, it must have a cause. This, too, will result in an infinite regress unless you have an uncaused cause as the first cause of the chain. The question is whether or not God is a cause or an effect. I'd say He is an uncaused cause, not a caused effect, and therefore does not need to have a cause.
Posted on 6/24/20 at 11:00 am to nola000
quote:This isn't a matter of logic. Logic is about reasoning, not necessarily convincing others. There are all sorts of logical arguments that are consistent and sound yet don't convince others. What you're describing is a lack of persuasion on your part, not whether the Christian faith is rational.
To those saying that you can have it too, you have to understand, some people's brains are so logical that we can't make that leap in believing something without direct and obvious evidence.
quote:What claims, specifically? I'm not a proponent of religious pluralism. I believe the Christian faith that is predicated on the historical biblical narrative of Jesus Christ, the son of God, becoming a man, obeying the obligations of the moral law of God for mankind and dying an unjust death so that man can be reconciled to God. I don't believe all religious claims hold the same weight in the discussion. Several major religions boil down the personal opinions of revered "holy men" that weren't claiming any sort of divine inspiration from above. Why should an arbitrary opinion of man be on the same level as the claim of revelation from an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent deity?
Then there's the whole history of being lied to about things we know were not true now by lots of religions.
quote:Which claims are proven false and "impossible"?
The claims that were made over the years that proved to be false or impossible.
quote:The Deist has no justification for their specific personal beliefs. Their general belief in the existence and power of God is testified to by Paul in Romans chapter 1 in the Bible, but beyond that, the Deist is left with nothing but pure speculation as they don't get their specific theological understanding from any sort of revelational source.
I know that's not fair to just general deist that never made any specific claims but just believe in a higher power. To me, that's a more defensible claim and for me personally, a possibility.
quote:They all can't be correct in the same way and at the same time. The different religions make exclusive claims that contradict the claims and beliefs of other religions. It would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction to say they are all correct at the same time. They can all be wrong, or one may be right, but they all can't be right.
I think for people like me, it's harder when people claim specific saviors as if there aren't thousands of other religions out there that could also be correct.
quote:Whose arrogance are you talking about? I'm a Christian. I believe that God has provided a testimony of His actions and descriptions of His character to humanity in an effort to commune with us. This testimony contradicts what all other world religions teach. If I am to believe the Bible, by default I have to reject all others. Why is that arrogance?
It seems like the height of arrogance to claim that your God or savior is the right God or savior and everybody else's throughout all of history is wrong.
Arrogance would be if I chose the Bible as my personal favorite book in some arbitrary way and then proceeded to reject all others simply because they didn't appeal to my vanity. In that case, my personal preference would be the sole decider of right and wrong rather than the object of my preference. Arrogance is making it all about yourself. Christians are to make their faith about their Lord and do all things for His glory, not ours. The Bible teaches a salvation by God's grace and mercy, not by our own merits. That's the opposite of human arrogance.
quote:Faith is required for salvation but it's not a leap of faith to mentally assent what the Bible teaches at all. It's entirely reasonable and only seems impossible or unreasonable in a worldview that rejects the underlying premise that precedes the claims, notably the existence of God.
It truly is a matter of faith.
Eta: y'all should feel lucky you're capable of such leaps. The solace that it brings must be extremely comforting.
This post was edited on 6/24/20 at 11:24 am
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