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re: Can you be fiscally conservative and socially liberal?
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:48 pm to roadGator
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:48 pm to roadGator
quote:
No one should have a hang-up about helping someone that can't help themselves.
Exactly, I should have stated that. That is my real basis for government in the first place. Do it yourself if you can. Government has gotten to ridiculous as to determining people can't help themselves.
0
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:50 pm to CptRusty
quote:
It absolutely is not
Then how is it that a gay couple has the right to force someone to provide his services?
This post was edited on 1/12/18 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:51 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Government is all about forcing a moral framework on others, including those that don't share their beliefs. We're just arguing about what standard or framework is better/best.
Our government (as framed) forces nothing on the individual from a moral standpoint. What it does do is prevent people from forcing their morality on others.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:52 pm to roadGator
quote:
Then how is it that a gay couple has the right to force someone to work for them?
I added to my original post for clarity, but to answer your question:
This is an example of government being too big, and is completely antithetical to the Libertarian philosophy.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:54 pm to CptRusty
quote:It absolutely is. Moral arguments are made by politicians on both sides of the isle to justify their positions on just about every piece of policy or legislation imaginable. From immigration to social programs to gun control, there is a moral obligation for government to be involved and therefore those things must be implemented whether the people agree with them or not.
It absolutely is not
Posted on 1/12/18 at 1:57 pm to Centinel
quote:Our entire government framework (in terms of liberty protection) is based on the moral argument that we are created in the image of God and therefore have value as human beings and rights that the government is morally obligated to protect.
Our government (as framed) forces nothing on the individual from a moral standpoint. What it does do is prevent people from forcing their morality on others.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:00 pm to Jokey1968
Yes, and it is in reality the real silent majority in the US, otherwise known as independants or left or right leaning moderates who don't have radical left for right views.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:01 pm to Jokey1968
Of course you can. I am.
I'm pro-staying the hell out of the personal lives of others as long as no one is being hurt because of your actions.
Pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-all the booze and pot that you want as long as you aren't driving or hurting others. I'm anti-death penalty unless there is a confession, video or DNA evidence for particularly terrible crimes. I believe that physician assisted suicide should be legal. I support DACA. I support the separation of church and state and feel that religion has no place in our government. I don't like school vouchers.
I go in the other direction, socially, when it comes to the Second Amendment, universal healthcare and welfare. I'm pro 2A and anti-welfare and universal healthcare.
On the other hand, I'm a fiscal conservative who is anti-government handouts... that applies to people, businesses and countries. I believe in the free market and capitalism. I think that social security needs to be privatized. I support tax cuts, cuts in government spending across the board, and elimination or pork barrel shite in every single bill.
I'm pro-staying the hell out of the personal lives of others as long as no one is being hurt because of your actions.
Pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-all the booze and pot that you want as long as you aren't driving or hurting others. I'm anti-death penalty unless there is a confession, video or DNA evidence for particularly terrible crimes. I believe that physician assisted suicide should be legal. I support DACA. I support the separation of church and state and feel that religion has no place in our government. I don't like school vouchers.
I go in the other direction, socially, when it comes to the Second Amendment, universal healthcare and welfare. I'm pro 2A and anti-welfare and universal healthcare.
On the other hand, I'm a fiscal conservative who is anti-government handouts... that applies to people, businesses and countries. I believe in the free market and capitalism. I think that social security needs to be privatized. I support tax cuts, cuts in government spending across the board, and elimination or pork barrel shite in every single bill.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:01 pm to Maytheporkbewithyou
quote:
Libertarianism is what people claim to be because they're ashamed to admit they are democrats.
Well, you're right about Bill Maher. But he's been shamed into dropping the Libertarian claim.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:01 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Our entire government framework (in terms of liberty protection) is based on the moral argument that we are created in the image of God and therefore have value as human beings and rights that the government is morally obligated to protect.
No, it's not. Your God is irrelevant to the framework the founders put in place.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:03 pm to Jokey1968
Yes. It’s called being a libertarian.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
It absolutely is.
not
quote:
Moral arguments are made by politicians on both sides of the isle to justify their positions
That doesn't mean the point of government is to force morality on people.
The point of government is to protect the rights of its citizens. Period. Full stop.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:05 pm to CptRusty
quote:
rough approximation of Libertarianism.
Yes. I'm conservative in most ways, but I believe there should be no drug laws and prostitution should be legal.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:06 pm to Centinel
quote:The reason the founders put the framework in place was to protect natural rights that were endowed by my God.
No, it's not. Your God is irrelevant to the framework the founders put in place.
If you reject God, you have no objective basis for human dignity and therefore human rights that need to be protected. Our rights would be completely arbitrary. Like I said, the entire basis for a government set up to protect the dignity and rights of citizens is based on the idea that we have innate and inalienable dignity and rights as human beings, which are created in the image of God, and are given a special status as such.
Whether you like it or not, you can't completely separate morality from government.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:09 pm to OMLandshark
No, because almost every 'socially liberal' position you can take involves redistribution of wealth.
If you believe that govt has a responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves then you are not a libertarian.
The libertarian position is private sector charity or just die... and try not to leave a stinking mess for others to clean up.
If you believe that govt has a responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves then you are not a libertarian.
The libertarian position is private sector charity or just die... and try not to leave a stinking mess for others to clean up.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:10 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The reason the founders put the framework in place was to protect natural rights that were endowed by my God.
wrong
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
They are endowed by their creator, which doesn't necessarily have to be the judeo-christian "god".
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:14 pm to CptRusty
quote:Wrong, as I said. Everything the government does has some facet of morality behind it. Elections are a competition about whose moral framework is better.
not
Look at all of this nonsense about Trump and his words about Haiti and other troubled nations. The outrage is a moral one.
quote:Our government in particular was founded on a religious and moral concept of natural rights belonging to humans because we were created by a God who gave us value that we should protect.
That doesn't mean the point of government is to force morality on people.
Our current government justifies everything it does by one moral code or another. Even the supposed qualifications to be in government have changed to reflect some sort of moral component. The whole #MeToo movement as it has impacted government is evidence of this. Why should an otherwise dutiful politician get the boot because they did something morally wrong and inappropriate (but culturally acceptable at the time) from years previously? Because we hold our government officials to a higher moral standard. Why should we if government is a-moral and strictly pragmatic? Because morality is infused with government.
quote:Leaving aside the "why" question (it has a moral underpinning), that's not all it does, which gets us back to those things it does do which has moral aspects to it. Even the supposed protection of rights has a moral facet to it. You can't escape morality when it comes to the government.
The point of government is to protect the rights of its citizens. Period. Full stop.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:16 pm to Jokey1968
No, you can’t. Social programs create bloated spending.
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:17 pm to CptRusty
quote:Nope. Right. The founders said as much. They weren't atheists who believed that humanity had no innate value.
wrong
quote:It's the "god" that they had in mind when they founded our government. Even the Deists had their view of God shaped by their Christian context. They just rejected His involvement in the affairs of men.
They are endowed by their creator, which doesn't necessarily have to be the judeo-christian "god".
Posted on 1/12/18 at 2:19 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
I think we are talking past each other.
Obviously our existing government has become a bloated gigantic morality enforcement machine.
I am saying that from a Libertarian perspective, this form of government is unacceptable and completely unnecessary.
ETA: When I say "the point of government is to protect the rights of its citizens" I am not speaking about the government of the USA, I am speaking about government as an abstract concept. What it should be, not the mess we currently have.
This post was edited on 1/12/18 at 2:22 pm
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