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re: Black ex-coaches say NFL's Rooney Rule is broken
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:17 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
funny enough, i believe a large reason for this is that the NFL cannibalized some of them by hiring them too young (morris is a great example).
Was just going to post this
1
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:18 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think it's their choice to run their team in the manner they wish, under the rules the other teams comprising the NFL promulgate
i mean it's not logical for a multi-billion dollar business like the Dolphins to have such a stupid ideology, but if that's who they are, then they will suffer for it.
Isn't that against the law?
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
racism is an intentional act/though
I grew up in a community in which blacks were largely considered inferior and it was thought that they were meant to be subservient. I am not exaggerating one iota. That was the prevailing opinion of easily 90% of the white population. I never thought twice about it until I got to high school and truly began to think for myself. So in those intervening years, did I "intend" to be racist?
Further, whether you choose to believe it or not, today much of this phenomenon truly is subliminal even today. We make assumptions or go with the familiar, and we're not even aware of the implications or, more importantly, the underlying reasons.
quote:
expanding the concept of "racism" because our society has advanced so much does nothing to help any of us
Not sure how the two parts of your sentence fit, but I don't think the concept of "racism" has expanded since it hit its peak in the seventies when the concept and term institutional racism was coined.
quote:
race pimps
I don't like race pimps either. That doesn't mean we bury our heads in the sand.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:22 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
racism sucks, but it's been basically eliminated from American society as much as it is possible to eliminate. we're the least racist country on earth. that's awesome. instead of celebrating these facts, people love to expand the definition of "racism" so that people like tony dungy can bitch
i'm sorry, but i detest that line of thinking. it serves only to prevent the natural development of our society
I just ran across this gem. I just thought I would give it some kudos.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:22 am to DelU249
that whole pattern is going to be seen a lot in the next 5-10 years or so. the NFL is hiring a lot of younger guys as HCs in general. they fail, go back to being coordinators, and then will re-emerge
josh mcdaniels WILL get another shot as a HC at some point. if morris can further establish himself and work up to a DC role (which he wasn't before he became a HC), he will, too.
romeo crennell is old as frick and got the HC job more as a caretaker role this year (he was old when he got his first HC job). it was a money move and a continuity move. i think KC just didn't want to hire a coach last offseason and was waiting for a guy like reid or lovie to go free
lovie will get another shot at HC. reid got a job as a retread over lovie b/c (1) he's had more success and (2) he's an offensive coach. lovie will get real looks in a year (esp if the bears suck this year)
josh mcdaniels WILL get another shot as a HC at some point. if morris can further establish himself and work up to a DC role (which he wasn't before he became a HC), he will, too.
romeo crennell is old as frick and got the HC job more as a caretaker role this year (he was old when he got his first HC job). it was a money move and a continuity move. i think KC just didn't want to hire a coach last offseason and was waiting for a guy like reid or lovie to go free
lovie will get another shot at HC. reid got a job as a retread over lovie b/c (1) he's had more success and (2) he's an offensive coach. lovie will get real looks in a year (esp if the bears suck this year)
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:24 am to shel311
quote:
Isn't that against the law?
It is against the law, and if anyone does indeed behave like that, it's very hard to prove.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:24 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think the overall NFL issue is a non-issue being created due to a small sample size of one offseason. the common/past arguments that follow the underlying basis for the rooney rule dont' even apply (there was a low number of retread coaches and there was a lot of "outsider" picks). plus, one of the black coaches who was fired was a failed retread and the other will get another job as a HC and become a retread
Now's the time to point this out. I'm pretty sure you're using the term racism (as it pertains to individuals) far more than I have and more than the critics NFL hiring practices. In fact, in the discussions I've listened to in the last week or so, they have made the point that they don't think that the GM's and owners are truly "racist".
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:26 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
I didn't know VOR and shel311 were black
I didn't know that I was black either.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:26 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
josh mcdaniels WILL get another shot as a HC at some point. if morris can further establish himself and work up to a DC role (which he wasn't before he became a HC), he will, too.
I honestly think Bill is grooming him to take over the Patriots. He let his hubris take over with the Broncos, I don't think he makes that same mistake again. The guy is an offensive genius, and still young enough to learn how to HC. It's probably a lot easier to mentor when your target has tasted failure.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:31 am to VOR
quote:
I grew up in a community in which blacks were largely considered inferior and it was thought that they were meant to be subservient.
and when you grew up it was better than when your parents grew up. i grew up in a different time when this didn't exist
like i said in another thread, we need to celebrate this progress....not create more conflict
quote:
So in those intervening years, did I "intend" to be racist?
yes, but you were a kid parroting the beliefs of your household/neighborhood. everyone does that with a variety of issues...it's not some indictment, it's just a part of growing up
quote:
We make assumptions or go with the familiar
and we always will. and this applies to things WAY beyond racism
i came out of my mom's vagina in a political subdivision called Lake Charles in a bigger political subdivision called Louisiana. think about all of the priming that gave me about those 2 things, when they have nothing to do with anything
i went to LSU b/c it happens to be a state school within the political subdivision of Louisiana. i grew to love LSU. had i been born in Texas i would have loved UT. or UF in Florida. or Berkley in California. such is life. that's part of being human. it's in our DNA
quote:
but I don't think the concept of "racism" has expanded since it hit its peak in the seventies when the concept and term institutional racism was coined.
i do
there is almost no institutional racism left in America. the population of actual racists is decreasing with every generation. however, to people who use perceived racism as their industry, it is promoted that racism is this pervasive problem in America. you only get there by expanding what "racism" is
quote:
That doesn't mean we bury our heads in the sand.
nobody is "burying their heads in the sand" here. there just isn't that much more than can be done. we're post-racial in today's America. we invent racism and attempt to correct it now. that's pretty amazing
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:33 am to SlowFlowPro
Someone pointed out earlier in the thread how the percentage of black NFL head coaches over the past 10-15 years has roughly been the same as the percentage of black people in the general population.
We all know, however, the statistical aberration that is the percentage of black players in the NFL versus that of the general population. While no rational person thinks that is due to any sort of inherent racial bias (conscious, unconscious, or otherwise), the assumption in this discussion seems to be that, because of this aberration among players, somehow the distribution of head coaches in the NFL should follow a somewhat parallel aberration racially and if it's not doing so, it's got to be the result of some sort of inherent bias. On it's face, I suppose, that might seem somewhat rational.
The problem with this line of thought, though, is that the history of football coaching (even removing race completely from the equation) has shown that success as a player is in no way, shape, or form correlated with success as a head coach. The best coach in the league right now, never sniffed an NFL roster. Sean Payton only did so by way of a complete fluke. One of the Super Bowl coaching brothers did. At best, you've got some former average players who have done well (Jim Harbaugh). However, the league is replete with really successful former players, black and white, who have fallen flat on their faces as head coaches.
As someone discussed earlier about how the NBA and MLB don't have a similar issue, I think it may have to do that, in those sports, more often professional success as a player has historically translated to success as a head coach/manager. I would argue, it probably has to do with the different nature of the sports, whereas in football, to be a great player at one position requires an extremely specialized skill set (both mentally and physically) that does not necessarily translate to other positions on the field (maybe, also why you don't see a lot of successful former pitchers as baseball managers).
Nobody would argue that Mike Singletary was not one of the most brilliant middle linebackers to ever play the game. There's probably not four people in the world who know linebacking better than him. He strikes me as a generally intelligent guy overall, as well. He was a terrible head coach, though.
Yeah, tl;dr. These are just some of my thoughts here, however.
We all know, however, the statistical aberration that is the percentage of black players in the NFL versus that of the general population. While no rational person thinks that is due to any sort of inherent racial bias (conscious, unconscious, or otherwise), the assumption in this discussion seems to be that, because of this aberration among players, somehow the distribution of head coaches in the NFL should follow a somewhat parallel aberration racially and if it's not doing so, it's got to be the result of some sort of inherent bias. On it's face, I suppose, that might seem somewhat rational.
The problem with this line of thought, though, is that the history of football coaching (even removing race completely from the equation) has shown that success as a player is in no way, shape, or form correlated with success as a head coach. The best coach in the league right now, never sniffed an NFL roster. Sean Payton only did so by way of a complete fluke. One of the Super Bowl coaching brothers did. At best, you've got some former average players who have done well (Jim Harbaugh). However, the league is replete with really successful former players, black and white, who have fallen flat on their faces as head coaches.
As someone discussed earlier about how the NBA and MLB don't have a similar issue, I think it may have to do that, in those sports, more often professional success as a player has historically translated to success as a head coach/manager. I would argue, it probably has to do with the different nature of the sports, whereas in football, to be a great player at one position requires an extremely specialized skill set (both mentally and physically) that does not necessarily translate to other positions on the field (maybe, also why you don't see a lot of successful former pitchers as baseball managers).
Nobody would argue that Mike Singletary was not one of the most brilliant middle linebackers to ever play the game. There's probably not four people in the world who know linebacking better than him. He strikes me as a generally intelligent guy overall, as well. He was a terrible head coach, though.
Yeah, tl;dr. These are just some of my thoughts here, however.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:37 am to SlowFlowPro
To me its pretty simple, more of the coaches are white because they know the game and just are not good enough to play so they ended up coaching. Most black athletes know the game and are good enough to play. The best man will get the job. A coach, running back reciever, kicker.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:38 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
there is almost no institutional racism left in America. the population of actual racists is decreasing with every generation. however, to people who use perceived racism as their industry, it is promoted that racism is this pervasive problem in America. you only get there by expanding what "racism" is
Don't know if I agree with that. I think the majority of the American population despite what they say or do, generally do not like black people. I do not think it is based on skin color.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:40 am to Tyger1919
quote:Not sure I follow. There are more black NFL players who had mediocre careers than white NFL players. There are more black college players who don't make the NFL than there are white college players who don't make the NFL. I don't know those things for certain, but i'm assuming lol.
To me its pretty simple, more of the coaches are white because they know the game and just are not good enough to play so they ended up coaching. Most black athletes know the game and are good enough to play
quote:Unless he's too hip hop.
The best man will get the job
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:41 am to DelU249
quote:
Don't know if I agree with that. I think the majority of the American population despite what they say or do, generally do not like black people. I do not think it is based on skin color.
I think a majority don't give a shite.
I've noticed the token racist moron is always the one that spews hate, and the others will just stare at them hoping they shut up. Outright confrontation with these morons is usually impossible, because their entire argument is illogical.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:45 am to shel311
quote:
Not sure I follow. There are more black NFL players who had mediocre careers than white NFL players. There are more black college players who don't make the NFL than there are white college players who don't make the NFL. I don't know those things for certain, but i'm assuming lol.
So, is the black Bill Belichick or Sean Payton out there somewhere, and deliberately not being allowed to get their foot in the door, or are they out there and simply not choosing similar paths? Is it something that, you feel, needs to be institutionally rectified either way?
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:49 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
The problem with this line of thought, though, is that the history of football coaching (even removing race completely from the equation) has shown that success as a player is in no way, shape, or form correlated with success as a head coach. The best coach in the league right now, never sniffed an NFL roster. Sean Payton only did so by way of a complete fluke. One of the Super Bowl coaching brothers did. At best, you've got some former average players who have done well (Jim Harbaugh). However, the league is replete with really successful former players, black and white, who have fallen flat on their faces as head coaches.
Yes and no. I see what you're saying, but the hiring pool for coaches, in any sport, is almost entirely restricted to former players. Now, as you point out, this can mean guys who only played in college and I do agree that the best coaches were usually MARGINAL players.
I'm not sure of the racial makeup of D-1 football, but I'd be willing to guess it skews more than the national average. I doubt it has the same racial makeup as the NFL, but I'm confident it still has a higher percentage of black people than the national population averages. And while I don't think the coaching ranks need to exactly match the racial makeup of the players, it would seem that, free of any bias whatsoever in hiring, the ratio would be closer to the makeup of those playing football than the actual makeup of the general population.
I don't think this means any team is racist per se, and you can certainly justify every hiring decision made this offseason. But, taken as a group, I think you would expect there to be more black head coaches.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
this is just such a stupid argument by these coaches
Right
If guys like Romeo would have been successful as head coaches then they would still be head coaches
Dungy could still coach but for personal reasons chooses not to
Then you've got guys like Herm Edwards who have had multiple head coaching opportunities
The idea that black coaches never get a shot is somewhat of a myth. Are they underrepresented? I don't know. Certainly not as far as the general population goes.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:53 am to Powerman
I'm trying to figure out VOR's argument that an organization that has propelled itself into the most popular and profitable sport the the US, largely because of the exceptional athletic performance of African American men, is racist.
Posted on 2/1/13 at 9:57 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
One of the Super Bowl coaching brothers did. At best, you've got some former average players who have done well (Jim Harbaugh). However, the league is replete with really successful former players, black and white, who have fallen flat on their faces as head coaches.
yeah it takes so much time to get experience coaching to move up, by the time a good/long career in the NFL is over, it's tough to get much better than a positional coach in the position you played
Jim Harbaugh is a weird outlier, b/c he was doing college coaching while he still played. he also purposefully worked his way up the coaching ranks in college first. most ex-players aren't willing to lower themselves (and take the massive lower paying job) to that coaching level.
quote:
would argue, it probably has to do with the different nature of the sports, whereas in football, to be a great player at one position requires an extremely specialized skill set (both mentally and physically) that does not necessarily translate to other positions on the field
i can't say much about baseball, but it's a lot easier to be an NBA head coach. they also have a disproportionate staff per player ratio when compared to the NFL. the NBA is also in large part an issue of talent. the NFL has essentially even talent for the most part, so actual gameplanning/coaching matters
you're right though, that there are a lot less things you have to learn in the game of basketball to gain total knowledge. but i think the assistant coach issue is a biggie, too. the mavs used to have an assistant coach for EACH player
quote:
Nobody would argue that Mike Singletary was not one of the most brilliant middle linebackers to ever play the game. There's probably not four people in the world who know linebacking better than him. He strikes me as a generally intelligent guy overall, as well. He was a terrible head coach, though.
yeah he hasn't even proven himself as a coordinator. i'm scared at the thought of him being the saints DC (which the saints board keeps bringing up).
i think this brings up another interesting point with football. it's constantly changing, evolving, etc. a guy like singletary, as a HC, tried to instill a 1980s mentality on his team. that's what he knows, and that's what worked then. that absolutely fricking failed on the field
see also: ditka, michael on the saints
al davis was obsessed with re-creating the offensive success he found in the 70s, to the point of hating john gruden for not passing it vertically enough. al davis would rather lose his way than win in a different way. he was an obvious outlier as an owner, but you see this with older players
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