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Started By
Message
Can any decent attorney (not AggieHank or SFP) give opinion on autopen
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:54 am
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:54 am
I am not a lawyer and I do not pretend to be one on the internet. Is using an autopen or docusign documents just as valid as having something physically signed and notarized?
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Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:55 am to AnotherWin4LSU
Are they still claiming to be attorneys?
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:56 am to AnotherWin4LSU
quote:
Is using an autopen or docusign documents just as valid as having something physically signed and notarized?
Depends on the country and I believe state(covid expedited a lot of states to take electronic signature) but yes it is. Consider how much business would be invalid if it wasn't...
Not an attorney but have bought implemented and integrated DocuSign for large companies internationally. Romania for example doesn't honor electronic signature or didn't pre covid.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 11:57 am
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:57 am to AnotherWin4LSU
You just sent out the bat signal.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:57 am to AnotherWin4LSU
quote:
I am not a lawyer and I do not pretend to be one on the internet. Is using an autopen or docusign documents just as valid as having something physically signed and notarized?
Just depends on the document. Somethings need to be wet signed but most things can be electronically signed these days.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:58 am to AnotherWin4LSU
The issue is going to be whether Biden actually “signed” the orders.
Your AggieHanks etc. will try to make the argument about whether digital signatures are valid. It’s an intentional misdirection trying to hide what was really going and reflecting from that issue.
No offense to you, but a post like yours is exactly the type of effort meant to focus on the wrong issue.
Your AggieHanks etc. will try to make the argument about whether digital signatures are valid. It’s an intentional misdirection trying to hide what was really going and reflecting from that issue.
No offense to you, but a post like yours is exactly the type of effort meant to focus on the wrong issue.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 11:59 am
Posted on 3/10/25 at 11:59 am to AnotherWin4LSU
quote:
Is using an autopen or docusign documents just as valid as having something physically signed and notarized?
Yes
The federal filing system has relied on e-signatures for 25-ish years, and it's been mandatory for like 18 or something.
*ETA: I'm just talking about autopen. The validity of e-signatures depends on the jurisdiction.
Here is the LA law on it
quote:
(2) On and after January 1, 2026, all filings as provided in Paragraph A of this Article and all other provisions of this Chapter filed by an attorney shall be transmitted electronically in accordance with a system established by a clerk of court or by Louisiana Clerks' Remote Access Authority.
quote:
F. A judge or justice presiding over a court in this state may sign a court order, notice, official court document, and other writings required to be executed in connection with court proceedings by use of an electronic signature as defined by R.S. 9:2602.
quote:
I. All electronic filings shall include an electronic signature. For the purpose of this Article, "electronic signature" means an electronic symbol or process attached to or logically associated with a record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record.
J. The clerk of court shall not refuse to accept for filing any pleading or other document that is signed by electronic signature and executed in connection with court proceedings, or that complies with the procedures for electronic filing implemented pursuant to this Article, solely on the ground that the pleading or document was signed by electronic signature.
Signature of Pleadings
quote:
A party or attorney may sign a pleading by electronic signature in accordance with Article 253.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 12:02 pm
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:01 pm to moneyg
quote:
The issue is going to be whether Biden actually “signed” the orders.
Your AggieHanks etc. will try to make the argument about whether digital signatures are valid. It’s an intentional misdirection trying to hide what was really going and reflecting from that issue.
No offense to you, but a post like yours is exactly the type of effort meant to focus on the wrong issue.
Well I was asking questions in sequence. If electronic signatures are valid the it would matter who had control of the autopen because if Biden was not the one clicking the button then this could get interesting. If electronic signatures are invalid the it doesn't matter who had control of the autopen.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:03 pm to moneyg
quote:
Your AggieHanks etc. will try to make the argument about whether digital signatures are valid. It’s an intentional misdirection trying to hide what was really going and reflecting from that issue.
The issue is the Constitution.
To argue the autopen signatures are invalid, you'll be arguing a Constitutional violation, which will be difficult when there is a set remedy in the document for such an issue (the 25th Amendment).
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:03 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
but most things can be electronically signed these days.
I get that. and that is legit.
the question is did biden actually e-sign all this paperwork (EO's/bills/pardons etc) or did some staffer somewhere do it?
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:04 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
Autopen is not the same as Docusign
Docusign has all sorts of identity verifications and backstops. Autopen is available to whomever has access to the machine. Now, the autopen in the White House may be another matter and I would need to know the protocols.
Still, the fact that a bunch of stuff was signed "after" Biden was declared "incompetent" is an issue. However, as SFP pointed out, the defense to any such attack is that the 25th Amendment wasn't utilized and that is the constitutional process to address such a situation.
Of course, the counter argument is that in this instance, it's is not a question of Biden's competency, but whether these were HIS actions at all?
Docusign has all sorts of identity verifications and backstops. Autopen is available to whomever has access to the machine. Now, the autopen in the White House may be another matter and I would need to know the protocols.
Still, the fact that a bunch of stuff was signed "after" Biden was declared "incompetent" is an issue. However, as SFP pointed out, the defense to any such attack is that the 25th Amendment wasn't utilized and that is the constitutional process to address such a situation.
Of course, the counter argument is that in this instance, it's is not a question of Biden's competency, but whether these were HIS actions at all?
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:04 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
If you can prove Joe did not know he signed or did not delegate the use of auto pen then they are null and void. But good luck on that. Joe lied about everything else why would he suddenly become honest
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Can any decent attorney (not AggieHank or SFP) give opinion on autopen
quote:
SlowFlowPro
Can you read? I said decent attorney and not you.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:06 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
quote:
If electronic signatures are valid the it would matter who had control of the autopen because if Biden was not the one clicking the button then this could get interesting.
That's not necessarily true.
I don't do much federal filing, but from the seminar they made me take to get my signature account, the signature is only for the attorney's account to which is filing is how they determine who filed the document.
Again, I don't work in Biglaw, but legal secretaries and paralegals "click the button" quite routinely, as far as I know. There are lawyers who work in bigger offices who can clarify this.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:08 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
What is the purpose of a "signature" in this context? It is intended to signify approval of the underlying document.
In a vacuum, autopen or digital signature can do that as well as (for instance) (i) a manual signature or (ii) an illiterate "making his mark" with the letter X.
But the poster above is correct in asserting that you are focused upon the wrong issue.
The question is whether Biden was "signifying his approval." Did he AUTHORIZE the use of the autopen or digital signature?
Hell, even if he did a manual signature, there would still be questions as to whether he had the legal capacity to approve or authorize anything, if he is alleged to have been non compos mentis at the time.
So, you really have two questions. First, did Biden authorize the use of the autopen or (instead) were others using it without his knowledge/consent? Second, even if he did purport to authorize its use, did he have the legal capacity to do so.
Lastly, even if you get past all those hurdles, you have the problem of the 25th Amendment, if you want to void any of these actions. There is a very strong argument that exercise of the 25th is the exclusive remedy here, and it was not exercised.
In a vacuum, autopen or digital signature can do that as well as (for instance) (i) a manual signature or (ii) an illiterate "making his mark" with the letter X.
But the poster above is correct in asserting that you are focused upon the wrong issue.
The question is whether Biden was "signifying his approval." Did he AUTHORIZE the use of the autopen or digital signature?
Hell, even if he did a manual signature, there would still be questions as to whether he had the legal capacity to approve or authorize anything, if he is alleged to have been non compos mentis at the time.
So, you really have two questions. First, did Biden authorize the use of the autopen or (instead) were others using it without his knowledge/consent? Second, even if he did purport to authorize its use, did he have the legal capacity to do so.
Lastly, even if you get past all those hurdles, you have the problem of the 25th Amendment, if you want to void any of these actions. There is a very strong argument that exercise of the 25th is the exclusive remedy here, and it was not exercised.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:08 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
Docusign is 100% legally binding.
I’ve bought and sold houses that way.
I’ve bought and sold houses that way.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:08 pm to SlowFlowPro
"the issue is the Constitution " But the fourth Law Of Hammarobi, indicates that if papyrus is used for the document, the ink used must be black and white
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to Zgeo
It’s less of legality of the electronic signature and closer to an argument of identity fraud or exceeding your individual authority to sign a document.
It’s like using a stamp with your parents signature as a kid to write your own “home sick” notes. The issue at hand isn’t the stamp, but the signatory of who that stamp not being aware the stamp was used in that manner.
It’s like using a stamp with your parents signature as a kid to write your own “home sick” notes. The issue at hand isn’t the stamp, but the signatory of who that stamp not being aware the stamp was used in that manner.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
They’re such good and busy attorneys they sit on here every work day 
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
No matter what the law is or what the facts are, those Biden signatures will NOT be invalidated. It just won’t be allowed to happen. Would cause too much turmoil.
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