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Federal govt employement is 3 million or 23 million ????

Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:33 pm
Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:33 pm

I did head count benchmarking of 5 large petrochemical sites in the early 90's, to support a staffing plan for a new site. Every site reported its headcount on a different basis driven by needs to show site in most favorable light. hourly, salaried, temporary, loan outs were treated differently. But one thing universal was the contractor head count vagueness. You just never got an answer.

This evening I read through several US govt reports that showed about 3 3 million employed by the federal govt. But they say upfront that doesn't include military, Postal service and a few smaller groups like the CIA.

Of three nongovt reports read, one claims that there are 2 fed contractors for every direct employee. Report two claims that when contractors are included the number is 21 million. Report 3 claims that when contractors,,,,,and grant managers, and consultants are included the number is 24 million folks working for the federal government.

there is lots of opportunity .

The total head count of state and local employees reported was ridiculous low. And I do get a lot more support from state and local versus Feds. DOGE will need more than a computer or 5 bullet statement to sort the data
Posted by Tortious
ATX
Member since Nov 2010
5498 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:35 pm to
Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
1985 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:45 pm to
quote:

Of three nongovt reports read, one claims that there are 2 fed contractors for every direct employee. Report two claims that when contractors are included the number is 21 million. Report 3 claims that when contractors,,,,,and grant managers, and consultants are included the number is 24 million folks working for the federal government.


It gets fuzzy when talking about a company that may have a government contract, but not everyone bills all of their hours to that contract. Now multiply that by several contracts and thousands of employees like Boeing. Some of your time may be billed to a private contract, some to a federal contract.
Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:45 pm to
I can still run those equations on my slide rule
Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 10:52 pm to
From Boeing, the purchase would be a material product like a tank or jet, and it would not be appropriate to count the craft workers that assembled the item. The purchase of a main frame computer material, could also come with maintenance labor from the supplier for a number of years which could be classified as labor

its not an easy evaluation but the range finding between 3 mil and 25 mil makes talking about costs really difficult
This post was edited on 2/27/25 at 10:55 pm
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 2/27/25 at 11:17 pm to
Best estimate I saw was 10M, that includes everyone that depends on the govt for their job / check. There are millions out there in a addition that have a slice of some grant money or are part of a project but it's pretty minimal or they have a business and 5% of what they do is tied to something with the govt. Figuring out a precise head count is impossible.
It's something like
1.5M military
2.5M General Schedule
1M misc like USPS and others
5M grant and contract

The only category the govt keeps close track of is the military, and then GS is pretty tight as well. The rest is much less precise.
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41149 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 6:47 am to
Contractors are held to a much higher standard as far as work produced per charged project hour.
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
14509 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 6:53 am to
The feds have eight different count measures. Some of the most useful are:

FTEs (full time equivalents)
AWUs (authorized work units)
Headcount (a simple count of people employed)
Employment Relationship Count
Non-seasonal full time permanent count

The above just shows how counting can vary based on need and rarely is a pure headcount used because not every employee costs additional taxpayer benefits. A simple headcount would be misleading depending on purpose of the query.

As of March 2024, OPM reported 2,278,730 executive branch civilian employees, excluding postal workers and certain agencies.
Posted by LSUtoBOOT
Member since Aug 2012
16522 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 6:58 am to
quote:

I can still run those equations on my slide rule

All you need is an abacus.
Posted by mdomingue
Lafayette, LA
Member since Nov 2010
38180 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 7:50 am to
Is the headcount the most useful metric when it comes to contractors? I would think manhours billed would be a better indicator of what they are costing the taxpayers.
Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 7:56 am to
I have two of those representing the two different key boards. Older had five slide keys, and new ones had 4.
Posted by TigerHornII
Member since Feb 2021
884 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 8:01 am to
Doesn't matter so much what the real HC is as long as you cut at the core of direct government employees. Every .gov head is a cost multiplier. They create other costs just by being on the payroll. Many moons ago, when I was closely involved in this sort of thing, I tried to calculate a true cost per gov employee. I came up with around 7x base salary for total cost - everything from benefits to office space to supplies to contract jobs that support them.

For comparison, a poorly run private non-profit has an overhead cost of around 4x, a well-run private company will be 1.5x (big volume mfr) to 2.8x (a more knowledge-oriented company with a lot of R&D).

If you want to get to a reasonable government budget, headcount is where you start. The knock-on benefits from cutting it will take a couple of years to unfold.
Posted by UltimaParadox
North Carolina
Member since Nov 2008
47278 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 8:06 am to
quote:

I came up with around 7x base salary for total cost


Can you share how you came up with this number? After this all started, I started looking into the govt benefits etc, and it appears I might be missing something.

Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 8:12 am to
there are three types of contractors situation that are reasonable
a. Low tech, unskilled, janitorial type workers
b. High tech, few in count, necessary on call, Air Force 1 turbine mechanic
c. Work load peaking 10 year census workers, fema


the ones that are not, are contractor hired to do my work for me.
Posted by Trevaylin
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
8634 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 8:15 am to
very good description of the issue thanks
Posted by Tree_Fall
Member since Mar 2021
844 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 9:05 am to
The ratio of actual civil servant to contract employee varies greatly across agencies. Usually, old gov institutions like Interior and Military are loaded with civil servants. Newer ones like EPA, NOAA and NASA are heavy with contractors.

There may still be a headcount games going on. An agency can have a lot of 11 month hires renewed every year. That one-month gap keep them from being counted. Another trick has been to give a small grant of salary + benefits to a university, then have that employee work only within a fed agency.

A certain percentage of fed bloat has/is caused by state pressure (mayors, governors, congressmen, etc.) who successfully push for offices, centers, and labs in the home state. Who works for what in hard to judge in those cases.
Posted by Coastrashtiger
Member since Nov 2021
295 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 10:47 am to
You are forgetting that the vast majority of these employees have no real profession or skills they have learned in government. Many of those fed contractors are actually contracted out to do the job the employees should be doing in the first place.
Posted by Steadyhands
Slightly above I-10
Member since May 2016
7038 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 10:48 am to
quote:

Contractors are held to a much higher standard as far as work produced per charged project hour.


I think you mean to say the opposite of this is true. Most government contracts that I've seen or been familiar with generally yield poor to shitty results qualitatively and quantitatively, but cost the government a fortune.

For instance, a private company highering another company to build out a software package will get a much better product and for less money, than if the government hired them for the same type of job.
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41149 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 10:58 am to
quote:

For instance, a private company highering another company to build out a software package will get a much better product and for less money, than if the government hired them for the same type of job.




Outside of the government’s increased (likely not really needed) requirements, and requirement creep not really allowed in a b2b transactions…humans don’t just work less hard because of who is paying. Lots of time my customer is a private company…they’re getting paid to launch rockets off of a gov site…but they’re trying to make money like any other business.
Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
1985 posts
Posted on 2/28/25 at 11:03 am to
quote:

Contractors are held to a much higher standard as far as work produced per charged project hour.
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