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Posted on 5/12/24 at 7:11 pm to Timeoday
Sounds bullshitty, especially seeing as how there's not exactly no jews at Google.
Posted on 5/12/24 at 10:02 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Yeah, all those Jews just up and disappeared. No telling what happened to them. We'll never know!
No one is saying that many Jews didn't die. There is just no evidence to support the number 6 million. We say 6 million because the jews say it was 6 million.
The World Almanac shortly after the war showed there were more jews in Europe than before the war. The mass graves to support that number don't exist. The Germans tracked everything they did and their records can't corroborate that number either. The gas chambers couldn't physically destroy the missing millions of bodies either.
The most generous estimates using all available evidence support 3-4 million killed. That's still untolerable and doesn't take away from the horror, so why is there such animosity towards people that just want the truth?
It's a virtual impossibility that millions of people could disappear without any evidence. People shouldn't be attacked just for saying something logical. There have been people sent to prison for even questioning the official narrative. It's what people do when they want you to just accept what they are saying without thinking.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 6:24 am to Timeoday
Hey buddy. Does AI know about the Holocoasters?
Posted on 5/13/24 at 7:26 am to TenWheelsForJesus
Some of the stories are clearly inventions.
I don’t believe the Germans were killing prisoners at Buchenwald by throwing them into a cage with a bear and and an eagle.
Shooting people? Yes.
Bizarre James Bond setup, no.
The claim also emerged decades after the war ended. It’s clearly hucksterism.
Disease and malnutrition were likely big killers, and should get talked about more.
It’s to some degree a symbolic figure. We don’t know how many people died.
Israeli filmmaker David Fisher in an interview with Haaretz.
LINK
I don’t believe the Germans were killing prisoners at Buchenwald by throwing them into a cage with a bear and and an eagle.
Shooting people? Yes.
Bizarre James Bond setup, no.
The claim also emerged decades after the war ended. It’s clearly hucksterism.
Disease and malnutrition were likely big killers, and should get talked about more.
quote:
There is just no evidence to support the number 6 million. We say 6 million because the jews say it was 6 million.
It’s to some degree a symbolic figure. We don’t know how many people died.
Israeli filmmaker David Fisher in an interview with Haaretz.
quote:
it’s true that in 1945 it was known that four million Jews were murdered in Auschwitz, and 50 years later it was known that ‘only’ a million and a half people were killed there, out of whom one million were Jews. When I heard about this discovery, I asked myself: How is it possible, then, that the six million number was not reduced accordingly?
LINK
This post was edited on 5/13/24 at 7:37 am
Posted on 5/13/24 at 7:35 am to Lima Whiskey
Here’s something that I doubt many people know.
I learned in school that the Nazis killed 11 million people on a systematic basis in the Holocaust. 6 million Jews plus 5 million other (Gypsies, homosexuals, invalids of various sorts).
Did y'all know the 11 million figure was made up? I’m not pulling this out of my arse, Holocaust historians have admitted it. It was a deliberate attempt to contrive a number of non Jews that was significant, yet less than the number of Jews, in order to garner more sympathy from gentiles at large. And now many are salty it still gets attention, because it fights for a share of outrage with the Jewish cost.
Times of Israel - ‘Remember the 11 million’? Why an inflated victims tally irks Holocaust historians
So, there is a lot of blatant disinformation around this topic and you’re a fool if you take every aspect of it without a grain of salt to say the least.
I learned in school that the Nazis killed 11 million people on a systematic basis in the Holocaust. 6 million Jews plus 5 million other (Gypsies, homosexuals, invalids of various sorts).
Did y'all know the 11 million figure was made up? I’m not pulling this out of my arse, Holocaust historians have admitted it. It was a deliberate attempt to contrive a number of non Jews that was significant, yet less than the number of Jews, in order to garner more sympathy from gentiles at large. And now many are salty it still gets attention, because it fights for a share of outrage with the Jewish cost.
Times of Israel - ‘Remember the 11 million’? Why an inflated victims tally irks Holocaust historians
So, there is a lot of blatant disinformation around this topic and you’re a fool if you take every aspect of it without a grain of salt to say the least.
This post was edited on 5/13/24 at 7:37 am
Posted on 5/13/24 at 7:37 am to Zach
quote:
The same thing happens to tons of people today. It's perfectly legal.
Sure man, tons of people die today, too, why are they picking on poor Hitler for doing what happens naturally?
You are being obtuse. What happened to the Jews during WW2 was arguably the greatest crime in human history. Maybe Stalin’s starvation of the Kulaks is as horrible; that’s about the only challenger.
This post was edited on 5/13/24 at 7:38 am
Posted on 5/13/24 at 7:41 am to TenWheelsForJesus
quote:
The mass graves to support that number don't exist. The Germans tracked everything they did and their records can't corroborate that number either. The gas chambers couldn't physically destroy the missing millions of bodies either.
The most generous estimates using all available evidence support 3-4 million killed. That's still untolerable and doesn't take away from the horror, so why is there such animosity towards people that just want the truth?
I agree with this, but it’s not really germane to this thread. As you pointed out yourself, 4 million is just as immoral as 6 million.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 7:45 am to Penrod
quote:
I agree with this, but it’s not really germane to this thread. As you pointed out yourself, 4 million is just as immoral as 6 million.
Don’t forget that the topic of this thread is being outraged an AI system refused to specify the Jewish death total as 6 million. What do you have to say to that?
Posted on 5/13/24 at 8:40 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Yeah, all those Jews just up and disappeared. No telling what happened to them. We'll never know!
There is merit in questioning the 6 million figure. To my knowledge, the 6 million estimate comes from 3 main sources:
1) Census data. The jewish population in Europe decreased from a pre war ~9.5 million to post war ~3.5 million. Obviously not all died in the holocaust. Some fled to different nations and were unaccounted for after, many died as civilians (normal death, starvation, disease, bombings, shootings), as military personnel, as part of the holocaust.
2) An SS officer, who was a major and worked for their central intelligence agency (RSHA), named Dr. Wilhelm Höttl during the Nuremberg Trials.
quote:
Approximately 4,000,000 Jews had been killed in the various concentration camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways, the major part of whom were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign against Russia.
3) Adolf Eichmann, another SS officer who was one of the main figures associated with bringing about the holocaust .Allegedly during the trial, held in Israel, he once said 6 million overall died. he later changed the number to 5 million in 1961 before being sentenced to death. I say allegedly as I havent looked into seeing if tapes exist.
They caught him in Argentina. A pretty interesting story to read about.
I think like any other historical event it is always good to look into it and continue to search for the truth. While the Germans kept good records, they did not have a master document, or multiple documents that when combined account for every death. A good example of this is something called Aktion T4 (T4 program). This was a eugenics program that killed mentally/physically disabled people (not just Jews, but in general). There is no main list/lists of all killed, only estimates, first hand witnesses, words from the families of those killed, and testimonies from the Nuremberg trials. Documents do exist that show killings, there are plenty. But there is nothing that when added up automatically equals an almost exact number, just like the holocaust.
Everyone has a bias and with such a polarizing event it will always be hard to find exact truth. There are many ridiculous claims on both sides (roller coasters that threw Jews into gas chambers/ovens, many nazi officals using jewish skin as decorations like lamp shades or as soap, people claiming the gas chambers were not in fact real and were only used for delousing).
Also, some believe Nuremberg trials estimates to also be not the greatest number due to mistreatment of Nazi affiliated prisoners. Whether that be forced confessions, threats, physical harm, etc.
My personal opinion is that the intensity of the holocaust only picked up when the war was clearly being lost. The german people starved as food went to soldiers. They did not have the resources to keep those in camps alive so they started executing them en masse.
Overall there were many attrocities during WW2 (allied bombings killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, holodomor, general starvation, ethnic killings/rape done by foreign armies in foreign lands done by all sides)
Posted on 5/13/24 at 8:52 am to Penrod
quote:
You are being obtuse. What happened to the Jews during WW2 was arguably the greatest crime in human history. Maybe Stalin’s starvation of the Kulaks is as horrible; that’s about the only challenger.
Western bias, what about Mao's Great Leap Forward that killed 30 - 55 million Chinese? That was just between 1958–1962. If we go past just the Great Leap Forward, some 80 million Chinese died under Mao. We will never know that number. So many died that the estimates range from 15m - 100m+
Labor camps, starvation, execution, mass killings, political prisoners.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 8:53 am to Penrod
quote:
What happened to the Jews during WW2 was arguably the greatest crime in human history
Oh good lord.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 8:54 am to Timeoday
quote:
A I refuses to say how many Jews were killed by the Nazis
12 billion
Posted on 5/13/24 at 8:57 am to bluedragon
Jordan Peterson claims he asked Google AI to write a laudatory poem about Trump and it refused, then he made the same request for Biden and BOOM! Poem written.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:02 am to TenWheelsForJesus
quote:
We say 6 million because the jews say it was 6 million.
The "number" congealed around statements by Eichmann made to another person in 1944. That came out during the 1961 trial, but a number between 5 and 6 million has been derived from census data and quite a bit of digging through Nazi archives.
Even the global civilian death total has a fairly wide range - as low as 35 to 38 million or as much as 55 to 60 million. Records are incomplete (Russia and China suffered enormous civilian casualties and records that would have helped narrow the number were destroyed during the fighting). While the Nazis kept detailed records, overall, as the war was ending, the killing ramped up and record keeping got lax.
The Nazis also killed millions of Soviet POWs and members of "undesirable" groups (Slavs, Gypsies, disabled, etc.)
Questioning the number for historical accuracy's sake is fine. Consensus seems to be in the 5 million to 6 million range (certainly not unreasonable), but certainly the Nazis had a target goal of surviving Jews on the planet: 0.
To parse these estimated numbers as a "gotcha" to either Jews or Israel is a questionable activity, IMHO.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:07 am to TenWheelsForJesus
You don’t need mass graves for cremated bodies.
I have zero respect for Holocaust deniers. They always go from “just asking questions” to “and that’s why we need a REAL holocaust” if you engage with them long enough. Genocide is bad. You can’t justify questioning whether a genocide happened or not if your end goal is to commit the very same genocide you’re casting doubt on the existence of.
Every internet Holocaust denier in a nutshell:
I have zero respect for Holocaust deniers. They always go from “just asking questions” to “and that’s why we need a REAL holocaust” if you engage with them long enough. Genocide is bad. You can’t justify questioning whether a genocide happened or not if your end goal is to commit the very same genocide you’re casting doubt on the existence of.
Every internet Holocaust denier in a nutshell:
This post was edited on 5/13/24 at 9:13 am
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:09 am to kingbob
quote:
You don’t need mass graves for cremated bodies.
The nazis didn't have the ability to cremate bodies at a higher rate than we do today. Cremation is expensive and not that simple.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:14 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Disease and malnutrition were likely big killers, and should get talked about more.
Frankly, these were more miserable deaths and still largely intentional acts by the Nazi regime.
The mistake folks make is to think of the entire apparatus as a killing machine. Yes, the Nazis ideal number of Jews was 0, but they were also practical. The overall scheme (and can largely be found in both explicit and implicit passages in Mein Kampf and other speeches/writings by Hitler and Goebbels particularly) was to:
1. Encourage/force approximately 1/3 of Europe's Jews to emigrate
2. Enslave approximately 1/3, at least temporarily, for the war machine (with the understanding that they would be worked to death, be killed or emigrate at the end of their usefulness)
3. Exterminate approximately 1/3 directly
If folks want to say that the Jewish victims of the Holocaust get more attention than, say Soviet citizens in the Ukraine and Western Russia, or Chinese victims of the Empire of Japan, that's fair. To suggest that Nazi Germany didn't make a good faith effort to rid Europe of Jews in an ungentle, genocidal way is ludicrous. Laughable. Credibility-destroying tripe.
Period.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:14 am to Old Money
They had giant industrial cremation facilities at a scale far beyond anything we have in our society because we aren’t genociding people in prison camps by the millions.
The holocaust happened in living memory. I have met survivors with the tattoos still on their wrists.
The holocaust happened in living memory. I have met survivors with the tattoos still on their wrists.
Posted on 5/13/24 at 9:21 am to Old Money
quote:
The nazis didn't have the ability to cremate bodies at a higher rate than we do today.
I have no idea how old you are, but the entire planet was restructured to fight that war. The United States completed over 200 combat aircraft PER DAY of the conflict.
The Soviets suffered around 2500 KIA - PER DAY - of the conflict for almost 4 years. That's a Pearl Harbor or 9/11 (although the latter was mainly civilians), PER DAY.
The scope and scale of the conflict suggests that, yes, they could cremate the bodies if they set their minds to it (although obviously there was a combination of mass graves, crematorium and, frankly, many thousands of unburied bodies as the camps were liberated - there are films if you are curious).
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