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re: If you believe your rights come from God then you are a Christian Nationalist
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:18 pm to Flats
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:18 pm to Flats
quote:
Not in a purely materialistic world.
Yea right..I think you were in the last discussion on free will and it really gets down deep into the source of conscious thought and even deeper to the nature of reality.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:28 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:Maybe not proof in a sense an atheist would accept. But I’d say there’s a lot of evidence suggesting there is a God. More so than evidence that there isn’t a God. Is that proof? Maybe not.
Now if you believe god bestows inherent rights making morality objective....do you believe the existence of god is provable? Would that be necessary to prove morality is objective?
quote:if your morality is fleeting, you have no morality
I'm a product of my environment that informs much of my morality..... that is constantly changing throughout time. I cant argue against it and be consistent.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:40 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:Thanks for being honest. Not everyone will agree but will reject any opinions and input from those with a religious worldview that directs their moral framework simply because of the association to religion. In a morally relativistic society, it shouldn't matter where an individual's moral commitments originate from.
We can collectively decide to ignore your reasoning and your values..but castigated no.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:41 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
Maybe not proof in a sense an atheist would accept. But I’d say there’s a lot of evidence suggesting there is a God. More so than evidence that there isn’t a God. Is that proof? Maybe not.
Is that proof necessary for an objective morality? If so then we could agree morality might be/might not be objective? I think I could sorta meet you half way there.
I'll even rephrase more in line with your thinking. Is proof of God necessary for morality to exist period? If so and there is no proof of God then is there no proof morality exist
I think I was getting hung up in the objective-subjective argument and you were saying it morality does not exist at all if it's not objective.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:47 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
You can be an atheist and still believe in inherent rights.
Not really.
What would confer those rights?
Anything an atheist could choose to answer that question either wouldn't be inherent (such as a social compact or social utility) or would be entirely subjective.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 4:59 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:I think you’ve ignored my original argument. The fact that people make moral arguments to begin with means morality is objective. And an objective morality has to have a source. I’m coming to the conclusion from the opposite side. Objective morality is proof for God, not the other way around.
Is that proof necessary for an objective morality? If so then we could agree morality might be/might not be objective? I think I could sorta meet you half way there.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:08 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
The fact that people make moral arguments to begin with means morality is objective.
I would tweak that slightly to say that it means people believe and act as if morality is, at least in some cases, objective. Even those who claim it's not typically behave as if it is.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:10 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
think you’ve ignored my original argument
Lol....I just realized that and just rephrase my question. Sorry..doing busy work while trying to have a discussion like this is not the best idea.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:13 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
Objective morality is proof for God, not the other way around.
shite..you lost me again...
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:23 pm to StrongOffer
So you beleive a universal objective morality exist and humans are evolving towards an understanding of that morality...is that correct?
I'm trying to understand how you define the changes in what we view as moral and immoral. Thats why I say it's subjective. What word besides morality do you use? Does that make sense?
I'm trying to understand how you define the changes in what we view as moral and immoral. Thats why I say it's subjective. What word besides morality do you use? Does that make sense?
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 5:30 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:28 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
Then I’m a Christian nationalist
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:40 pm to Flats
quote:
would tweak that slightly to say that it means people believe and act as if morality is, at least in some cases, objective.
Ok.that makes sense but he is arguing morality doesn't exist unless it's objective...but that is based on a belief that is subjective?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 5:59 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:All good man. I’ve appreciated the good-natured discourse.
Lol....I just realized that and just rephrase my question. Sorry..doing busy work while trying to have a discussion like this is not the best idea.
quote:I don’t believe we’re evolving to an objective morality, I believe we already know it. It’s not changing. We actually as a society and choosing to be immoral more and more. What you’re describing is maybe a personal outlook on life. Your personal opinions can change, but that doesn’t mean morality is changing. We’re all trying to decide what is good and bad. You’ll give your reasoning, I’ll give mine. You may even convince me and change to saying something is good. No matter what, to ask a question if something is good or bad, there has to be a correct answer. If our opinion changes, that doesn’t mean the correct answer has changed
So you beleive a universal objective morality exist and humans are evolving towards an understanding of that morality...is that correct? I'm trying to understand how you define the changes in what we view as moral and immoral. Thats why I say it's subjective. What word besides morality do you use? Does that make sense?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 6:43 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”
The same Creator is worshipped by Jews who believe in our Constitution. I wouldn't call them Christian anything.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 6:55 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
don’t believe we’re evolving to an objective morality, I believe we already know it. It’s not changing. We actually as a society and choosing to be immoral more and more. What you’re describing is maybe a personal outlook on life. Your personal opinions can change, but that doesn’t mean morality is changing.
I'm talking about major cultural/moral shifts like ending slavery in the west...your saying that group of humans during that time knew slavery was immoral but chose to anyway? When was the morality code given to us? I'm trying hard here Ringo..to understand your prospective.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 6:58 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 7:05 pm to FooManChoo
"It's helpful to have a rational defense of that, otherwise it's merely opinion."
For you maybe, my "opinion" is all that counts to me.
I don't need someone/things permission to protect what I hold dear.
That's the easiest way for me to explain it Foo.
For you maybe, my "opinion" is all that counts to me.
I don't need someone/things permission to protect what I hold dear.
That's the easiest way for me to explain it Foo.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 7:22 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:I’m saying there’s been an objective moral code since the beginning of time. Before the Bible, before the West, before any of us, people debated what was right and wrong. While that has changed, the underlying moral code was always there, unchanged. A objective morality. This is evidenced by the fact that people have always argued over what was good and bad for society. Not sure how I can better phrase what I’ve said before. If morality were subjective, there would be no way to make a moral argument. Our problem is we’re not on same page of what moral subjectivism. I guess I’m not explaining myself well enough
I'm talking about major cultural/moral shifts like ending slavery in the west...your saying that group of humans during that time knew slavery was immoral but chose to anyway? When was the morality code given to us? I'm trying hard here Ringo..to understand your prospective.
Edit: if you say slavery is bad, I say slavery is good (I absolutely don’t, for the sake of argument haha). If subjective morality were true, you would have no moral grounds to say I’m wrong. It’s up to me to decide what is moral or not.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 7:27 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 7:53 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
guess I’m not explaining myself well enough
No man you are good I'm seeing your dots just having trouble connecting them. Not the best format for topics like this.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 7:56 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
quote:
you are a Christian nationalist.
Is this supposed to be a smear?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 8:06 pm to SouthEasternKaiju
quote:
Everyone not them is the enemy.
I like turtles.
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