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Started By
Message
re: Alabama IVF ruling
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:18 pm to hawkeye007
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:18 pm to hawkeye007
quote:
get a clue jackass. No one is murdering innocent children with IVF.
In this case, actually, the facility's reckless actions led to the deaths of these embryos. You can call that whatever you'd like, I guess.
0
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:20 pm to hawkeye007
quote:
your letting men off way to easy
In reality, men are already held accountable. If the female wants to have the child and the man does not, our laws already force him to pay child support for the next 18 years, at least, or spend time in jail for failure to pay.
By comparison, women can simply abort the child if they do not want the responsibility.
Since abortion is legal this creates an obvious legal discrepancy where women have full control over men in this area.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:22 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
women have full control over men in this area
100% false.
Just don’t have sex.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:22 pm to hawkeye007
I’m waiting for one of these states and idiot politicians to try and ban miscarriages and charge women with a crime when it happens.
That’s how stupid some these people are.
That’s how stupid some these people are.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:23 pm to hawkeye007
quote:Men shouldn't get a free pass, no. I believe that a man who impregnates a woman should be responsible for that child.
do you support the father's being charged with murder also when a woman aborts a child? It's always talked about as being the mothers fault for aborting a child. Men get a free pass in this conversation always. He helped create this child but faces no punishment.
Regarding punishment for abortion, it simply depends. Women hold all the cards right now in our country and men don't really get a (legal) say in the matter.
If in the future, if we are blessed to live in a country where all forms of abortive procedures and actions are outlawed and a woman obtains an illegal abortion, knowing what she was doing (knowing that it was killing her living child), then I would support some legal penalty on the mother as well as anyone who was proven to be a willing accomplice in the action, such as doctors, nurses, and even the husband/boyfriend/sperm donor.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:24 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Just don’t have sex.
I obviously agree with this sentiment, but it does not change a single thing about my argument and actually only bolsters what I'm saying. Women can make this same decision. This statement does not hold more sway over either men or women in this discussion.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:24 pm to hawkeye007
quote:
a quick google search for lawsuits on this subject say they are almost always a willing participant.
Lawsuits on what exactly? I'd like to Google and read for myself
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:24 pm to Pikes Peak Tiger
quote:
I’m waiting for one of these states and idiot politicians to try and ban miscarriages and charge women with a crime when it happens.
That’s how stupid some these people are.
It would be impossible to come to such a conclusion from what happened in this case.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:26 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
100% false.
Just don’t have sex.
Or wear a condom
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:29 pm to jchamil
quote:
Or wear a condom
Which, again, is an argument that applies to both parties during intercourse. This does not change literally anything that may occur after both parties have made the decision to have sex and in no way would imply that the man has some extra responsibility that the woman does not.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:30 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
but it does not change a single thing about my argument and actually only bolsters what I'm saying. Women can make this same decision. This statement does not hold more sway over either men or women in this discussion.
No it actually doesn’t change anything. If you are a man and don’t want a kid, just don’t have sex. You won’t have a kid if you don’t have sex. No need to go any further.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:31 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
It would be impossible to come to such a conclusion from what happened in this case.
Maybe so, but it's not completely off. If you ban abortions, you're going to have to start prosecuting those who have them.
How are police supposed to differentiate someone having an abortion from someone having a miscarriage without an investigation?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:36 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
It would be impossible to come to such a conclusion from what happened in this case
Right because idiot right wing politicians never go just as far to that aside as idiot left wing politicians do.
This is a stupid law and will do nothing but hurt families in Alabama that want to have children but for whatever reason can’t do it “naturally”
Also further proof that no mater how idiotic the Democrats are, Republican politicians will try to one up them.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:37 pm to AndyCBR
quote:
You can send your embryos to another state to be destroyed.
Why should we have to play this kabuki theater?
Republicans are insane, that's why.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:41 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:They aren't, without an investigation, but that's true for pretty much every illegal activity.
How are police supposed to differentiate someone having an abortion from someone having a miscarriage without an investigation?
States have laws against murder today, and not every instance of murder is even known, much less able to be proven to be murder. The laws against it are still good both for general prevention (most people still know that murder will likely result in jail or worse) as well as providing the means for justice when the act can be proven.
Outlawing abortion doesn't mean every abortion will be prevented or even be able to be prosecuted, but it will both lower the overall number of abortions due to fear of just prosecution as well as provide a means for judicial recourse if probable cause can be obtained and violation of the law proven.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:43 pm to Pikes Peak Tiger
quote:
This is a stupid law and will do nothing but hurt families in Alabama that want to have children but for whatever reason can’t do it “naturally”
The law in question outlawed abortion, not IVF. This will be nothing at all in a week.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:43 pm to auburnnyc94
quote:
But even as it stands, there seems to be no criminal liability on the side of the providers. They are just being extra cautious in my eyes.
The providers are organized entities. Civil liability for wrongful death whenever a blastocyst is disposed of or thaws or a freezer fails is the death penalty for these companies.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:44 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
If you ban abortions, you're going to have to start prosecuting those who have them.
Completely agree. We should definitely do this and the penalties should be commiserate with premeditated murder charges.
quote:
How are police supposed to differentiate someone having an abortion from someone having a miscarriage without an investigation?
Are you under the impression this is difficult to determine?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:45 pm to TBoy
quote:
Civil liability for wrongful death whenever a blastocyst is disposed of or thaws or a freezer fails is the death penalty for these companies.
In this case, they negligently left a door open to the public and a random dude walked in and opened the freezer door, which then led to the death of the embryos. I have no sympathy for this company whatsoever and I don't see how anyone could.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 3:45 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 3:45 pm to hawkeye007
While this sounds like it might cause a conundrum for embryos already in storage (or perhaps these will be 'grandfathered') In reality, Endocrinologists and other IVF doctors will just make fewer of them going forward. In otherwords, instead of going through one round of IVF and making 10 embryos, implainting 2, and keeping 8 on the rocks for the future.. they will make 2 and implant 2. This will likely mean lower rates of success for infertile women, as time passes between each round and egg quality goes down with age. It might also mean more IUI where they blast the woman full of hormones, allow as many eggs as possible to form and then send her home to conceive naturally, subjecting her to high risk multiple birth pregnancies a la Octomom.
We need to have a national debate on when this country's laws confer personhood on human life, but the politicians are NOT interested in solving this because it can be used to agitate their base to vote
We need to have a national debate on when this country's laws confer personhood on human life, but the politicians are NOT interested in solving this because it can be used to agitate their base to vote
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 3:48 pm
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