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Started By
Message
Follow up to "Did the South ever really have a chance (Civil War)?"
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:33 am
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:33 am
If the South had won, what would the two countries look like today?
What would have happened during WWI and WWII, or would they have happened at all?
What would have happened during WWI and WWII, or would they have happened at all?
25
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:35 am to Ajo Devil
the north would be the more racist country
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:36 am to Ajo Devil
The United States would've come up with some lame arse excuse and invaded the South before the 20th century.
But no, there really wasn't a chance.
But no, there really wasn't a chance.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:36 am to Ajo Devil
If the South would have won we'd have it made. I'd probably been President of the Southern States.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:37 am to Ajo Devil
quote:
If the South had won, what would the two countries look like today?
I saw that movie.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:37 am to Ajo Devil
They would have voluntarily ended slavery by the 1890s at the latest like the most of the rest of the world as industrialization made it inefficient as a labor model.
You’d have seen a specialist artisan class arise and thrive.
Lot less dead people
You’d have seen a specialist artisan class arise and thrive.
Lot less dead people
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:38 am to Ajo Devil
There would have been conflict and probably another civil war over the western territory. The country would have been reunified out of necessity sooner or later, either voluntarily or by force.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:38 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
The United States would've come up with some lame arse excuse and invaded the South before the 20th century.
This.
And who says that the North would have ever stopped the blockade? The Allies continued blockading Germany long after the WWI Armistice in Nov 1918. Millions more died of malnutrition because of that.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:39 am to Champagne
quote:
If the South would have won we'd have it made. I'd probably been President of the Southern States.
Played this on the jukebox of a multicultural bar once
Didn't go over well
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:39 am to Ajo Devil
quote:
f the South had won, what would the two countries look like today?
What would have happened during WWI and WWII, or would they have happened at all?
I think there would have ultimately been some form of reconciliation, political alignment of some sort to address trade issues and the challenges of the 20th Century namely the rise of Germany and Japan.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:44 am to fr33manator
The South would have industrialized without the North's supply. Ship building would have boomed to haul cotton to Europe. We would have built our own textile mills with our money instead of the New York financing the movement of the mills from New England because the labor cost up there was getting too high.
It would be our oil insread of Rockefeller oil.
It would be our oil insread of Rockefeller oil.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:49 am to fr33manator
quote:
They would have voluntarily ended slavery by the 1890s at the latest like the most of the rest of the world as industrialization made it inefficient as a labor model.
Think it would have taken that long? I recall doing some historical research and there were beliefs that the South was already moving towards to eliminating slavery until the war appeared imminent.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:52 am to Ajo Devil
Good question.
How long til the South industrialized?
Another question. The slaves soon outnumbered the whites if they didn't already. In Mississippi, there were more blacks than whites in 1940.
How long til the South industrialized?
Another question. The slaves soon outnumbered the whites if they didn't already. In Mississippi, there were more blacks than whites in 1940.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:53 am to Ajo Devil
Honest opinion.
- Slavery would’ve ended within 15 years. The industrialized agriculture just over the horizon would’ve made it irrelevant. Getting grass roots support in the south to end it would’ve probably made integration a much more positive thing.
- As far as the political aspect of it, that’s hard to tell. Given the politics at the time I think the country possibly could’ve reunited by the early 20th century. Lincoln would’ve been shamed for losing the war and Washington likely would’ve been amenable to amendments solidifying the 10th amendment. At the end of the day the north needed the agriculture of the south and the south needed the industry of the north. So at the very least they would’ve had to establish commerce.
- Going further into the 20th century all bets are off. I’m not sure how a CSA/USA survives The Depression. You would have likely had CSA/USA troops serving alongside each other in Europe during WWI.
This is such a tough thing to speculate on especially since you have to look at it thru the lens of the political spectrum that existed at the time.
- Slavery would’ve ended within 15 years. The industrialized agriculture just over the horizon would’ve made it irrelevant. Getting grass roots support in the south to end it would’ve probably made integration a much more positive thing.
- As far as the political aspect of it, that’s hard to tell. Given the politics at the time I think the country possibly could’ve reunited by the early 20th century. Lincoln would’ve been shamed for losing the war and Washington likely would’ve been amenable to amendments solidifying the 10th amendment. At the end of the day the north needed the agriculture of the south and the south needed the industry of the north. So at the very least they would’ve had to establish commerce.
- Going further into the 20th century all bets are off. I’m not sure how a CSA/USA survives The Depression. You would have likely had CSA/USA troops serving alongside each other in Europe during WWI.
This is such a tough thing to speculate on especially since you have to look at it thru the lens of the political spectrum that existed at the time.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:56 am to Ajo Devil
South wins by diplomacy and the North doesn’t want to fight a war:
Slavery ends probably around Brazil’s timeline or later, buttt it doesn’t really end
More than likely a greater scale Great Migration of blacks and poor whites go to the North.
The south invades Mexico and fails miserably because it’s only option is to go from up north and not the gulf like the USA did previously
The south doesn’t have the capacity or manpower to fight off Indian raids out west, so west Texas fails to find oil and stuff
By 1930s, anywhere south of Atlanta is seen as abandoned and economically destroyed. The rich planter class has either migrated to the USA, to Brazil, or the border states such as Virginia and Tennessee.
The economically depressed south becomes a haven for communism and radicalism to flourish. Plus, it more than likely imports farmer immigrants from Italy and Russia who express these ideals the most. In addition, mafias are much more prominent in the south than the north. There is conflicts of this due to the anti catholic/racial views of the Confederacy but that won’t have much of a choice at this point. The North is going to outcompete them for Germanic/Protestant immigrants.
IDK after this point tbh lol. More than likely a poorer backwater Argentina, maybe Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee apply to come back to the US but the rest of the south gets wrecked.
Slavery ends probably around Brazil’s timeline or later, buttt it doesn’t really end
More than likely a greater scale Great Migration of blacks and poor whites go to the North.
The south invades Mexico and fails miserably because it’s only option is to go from up north and not the gulf like the USA did previously
The south doesn’t have the capacity or manpower to fight off Indian raids out west, so west Texas fails to find oil and stuff
By 1930s, anywhere south of Atlanta is seen as abandoned and economically destroyed. The rich planter class has either migrated to the USA, to Brazil, or the border states such as Virginia and Tennessee.
The economically depressed south becomes a haven for communism and radicalism to flourish. Plus, it more than likely imports farmer immigrants from Italy and Russia who express these ideals the most. In addition, mafias are much more prominent in the south than the north. There is conflicts of this due to the anti catholic/racial views of the Confederacy but that won’t have much of a choice at this point. The North is going to outcompete them for Germanic/Protestant immigrants.
IDK after this point tbh lol. More than likely a poorer backwater Argentina, maybe Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee apply to come back to the US but the rest of the south gets wrecked.
This post was edited on 7/18/22 at 10:06 am
Posted on 7/18/22 at 9:58 am to fr33manator
quote:
They would have voluntarily ended slavery by the 1890s at the latest like the most of the rest of the world as industrialization made it inefficient as a labor model.
No, this is just wishful thinking. This ignores the entirety of the labor movement as well as what occurred with convict leasing, peonage and sharecropping. I've seen this point repeated but no one ever seems to contextualize it relative to what actually occurred after the the CW.
And there were several countries that banned slavery before industrialization proper.
quote:
You’d have seen a specialist artisan class arise and thrive.
The entire political economy of the South was oriented in one direction and it wasn't around artisanal classes.
Posted on 7/18/22 at 10:02 am to elprez00
quote:
Slavery would’ve ended within 15 years. The industrialized agriculture just over the horizon would’ve made it irrelevant. Getting grass roots support in the south to end it would’ve probably made integration a much more positive thing.
Would they be integrated or would the CSA have shipped them to Liberia?
Posted on 7/18/22 at 10:07 am to Cash
quote:
Would they be integrated or would the CSA have shipped them to Liberia?
This was pretty expensive and a pipe dream. Blacks would’ve just moved to the north and west on a much larger scale than our timeline.
This post was edited on 7/18/22 at 10:23 am
Posted on 7/18/22 at 10:21 am to Ajo Devil
The black population would have been locked into the south, so the north would have been a much more white country than it is now.
The north would have dwarfed the south economically, as it already was. Plus this would have been accelerated by the demographics.
Eventually the south would have freed the slaves, as someone already posted. The freed slaves would have immigrated north just as poor Latinos are immigrating today. The south would have denied the vote to blacks because their sheer numbers would have wrested control from conservatives. Then the south would have suffered a fate similar to South Africa.
Fortunately the good guys won, and we don’t have to worry about that!
The north would have dwarfed the south economically, as it already was. Plus this would have been accelerated by the demographics.
Eventually the south would have freed the slaves, as someone already posted. The freed slaves would have immigrated north just as poor Latinos are immigrating today. The south would have denied the vote to blacks because their sheer numbers would have wrested control from conservatives. Then the south would have suffered a fate similar to South Africa.
Fortunately the good guys won, and we don’t have to worry about that!
This post was edited on 7/18/22 at 10:21 am
Posted on 7/18/22 at 10:21 am to Stephen_Bonnet75
quote:
This was pretty inexpensive and a pipe dream.
Assume you meant to type expensive.
So a better question would be maybe, would they have been integrated or would the CSA be an apartheid state?
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