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Started By
Message
The BETTER WI-FI and Home Networking Thread
Posted on 9/14/22 at 11:08 am
Posted on 9/14/22 at 11:08 am
What kind of Wi-Fi router should I get?
Most people should get any of the mesh systems. Google WiFi, Netgear Orbi, Eero, Linksys Velop, TP-Link Deco, etc. For the most part, all of these systems work very well and trouble-free. The vast majority of buyers are extremely satisfied regardless of which system they choose.
Why a "mesh"?
It's the easiest, and typically cheapest, way to get multiple Wi-Fi access points in your home.
And why do I want multiple access points instead of one really strong one?
Because communication is a two-way street. If you crank up the signal strength, you might see a strong signal indicator on your phone a mile away, but your phone's little radio won't be able to talk back and you're going to have a bad time. Also, since buildings are generally not built with great Wi-Fi as a guiding design principle, there is almost always something that obstructs radio waves, be it bricks and mortar, a wet wall, or a big mirror. Multiple access points are beneficial even in smaller homes.
Can't I just get an "extender"?
"Extender" used to refer to a dumb Wi-Fi device that basically repeated every signal that it picked up, and as a result it extended the Wi-Fi's range. They work alright, but the downside is they slice your speed directly in half. But "extender" is a generic term, and these days some companies seem to be using it to refer to devices that work like a mesh system.
So how is a mesh better than a dumb extender/repeater?
Mesh systems work by establishing direct communications between each access point node on a dedicated radio channel. So instead of just repeating everything they hear and cutting speeds in half, they intelligently route signals where they need to go. Some of them also allow hardwired connections between nodes, which makes for an even better and more stable system. But if you're willing to do that then you might want to go a step further (more on this later).
Are there any downsides to a mesh?
They are not cross-compatible, so whatever you choose is what you've got. You cannot buy an Orbi system and add an Eero to it later (well you probably can but it won't be seamless). These companies are very well-established, though, so I can't imagine it ever being difficult to buy more units later on if you need to add or replace one.
They tend to have limited configuration options. This is probably not a problem for the vast majority of users, as they are on par with other consumer routers in this regard.
You will have multiple things around your house taking up shelf space and power outlets. Or maybe you think they look nice.
Are they hard to set up?
No harder than any other router. There are, of course, extra steps simply because there are more devices to set up, but the companion apps will walk you through it.
I have XYZ modem/router/ISP, can I switch to a mesh?
Most likely.
If your modem and router are two different boxes, usually you can directly replace the router with the main mesh unit with no hassle.
If you only have one box that serves as your modem and router (this is typical with AT&T, for example), then you will have to do some configuration. The reason for this is your new mesh system will want to do the routing, but your existing modem/router will also want to do the routing. The ensuing power struggle will result in unrest and lack of basic services. You have to stage a coup.
The procedure and terminology will vary by make and model, but the gist is you need to put the modem/router in "passthrough" or "bridge" mode or similar. This will make it work like a modem only, handing the routing duties off to your new mesh system.
Some ISPs also now offer "extenders" or "satellites" for the routers that they provide. I assume these work in the same way as 3rd party mesh systems, and I suppose they work well enough. But the ISP business model is built around recurring revenue, so if you look into this route make sure you can buy the units outright and that you won't be charged a monthly fee for them.
What is the "step further" mentioned above involving running wires?
If you want maximum performance and stability, then you need to replace wireless connections with wires wherever possible. The dedicated wireless channels used by mesh systems work very well, but they are still subject to the same interference and physical limitations as other wireless communications.
And if you're running ethernet cable, then you can supply power over ethernet (PoE) to an access point which accepts it and do away with wall wart power bricks, visible cords, and shelf- or end table-mounted access points. Then you can have Wi-Fi that is no more visible or intrusive than a smoke detector, and you are no longer limited to placing them around the perimeter of a room near an outlet and a flat surface. You can place them on the ceiling near the middle of the room as God intended.
Running wires sounds complicated and expensive.
You're probably right. And again, most people should just get a mesh system and be done with it. Especially if you rent or plan to move in the next 5 years or so, a mesh system is easy to pack up and take with you.
Running ethernet cable and setting up a more advanced network should probably only be considered for new construction or if you own and plan to stay put for 5+ years.
Most people should get any of the mesh systems. Google WiFi, Netgear Orbi, Eero, Linksys Velop, TP-Link Deco, etc. For the most part, all of these systems work very well and trouble-free. The vast majority of buyers are extremely satisfied regardless of which system they choose.
Why a "mesh"?
It's the easiest, and typically cheapest, way to get multiple Wi-Fi access points in your home.
And why do I want multiple access points instead of one really strong one?
Because communication is a two-way street. If you crank up the signal strength, you might see a strong signal indicator on your phone a mile away, but your phone's little radio won't be able to talk back and you're going to have a bad time. Also, since buildings are generally not built with great Wi-Fi as a guiding design principle, there is almost always something that obstructs radio waves, be it bricks and mortar, a wet wall, or a big mirror. Multiple access points are beneficial even in smaller homes.
Can't I just get an "extender"?
"Extender" used to refer to a dumb Wi-Fi device that basically repeated every signal that it picked up, and as a result it extended the Wi-Fi's range. They work alright, but the downside is they slice your speed directly in half. But "extender" is a generic term, and these days some companies seem to be using it to refer to devices that work like a mesh system.
So how is a mesh better than a dumb extender/repeater?
Mesh systems work by establishing direct communications between each access point node on a dedicated radio channel. So instead of just repeating everything they hear and cutting speeds in half, they intelligently route signals where they need to go. Some of them also allow hardwired connections between nodes, which makes for an even better and more stable system. But if you're willing to do that then you might want to go a step further (more on this later).
Are there any downsides to a mesh?
They are not cross-compatible, so whatever you choose is what you've got. You cannot buy an Orbi system and add an Eero to it later (well you probably can but it won't be seamless). These companies are very well-established, though, so I can't imagine it ever being difficult to buy more units later on if you need to add or replace one.
They tend to have limited configuration options. This is probably not a problem for the vast majority of users, as they are on par with other consumer routers in this regard.
You will have multiple things around your house taking up shelf space and power outlets. Or maybe you think they look nice.
Are they hard to set up?
No harder than any other router. There are, of course, extra steps simply because there are more devices to set up, but the companion apps will walk you through it.
I have XYZ modem/router/ISP, can I switch to a mesh?
Most likely.
If your modem and router are two different boxes, usually you can directly replace the router with the main mesh unit with no hassle.
If you only have one box that serves as your modem and router (this is typical with AT&T, for example), then you will have to do some configuration. The reason for this is your new mesh system will want to do the routing, but your existing modem/router will also want to do the routing. The ensuing power struggle will result in unrest and lack of basic services. You have to stage a coup.
The procedure and terminology will vary by make and model, but the gist is you need to put the modem/router in "passthrough" or "bridge" mode or similar. This will make it work like a modem only, handing the routing duties off to your new mesh system.
Some ISPs also now offer "extenders" or "satellites" for the routers that they provide. I assume these work in the same way as 3rd party mesh systems, and I suppose they work well enough. But the ISP business model is built around recurring revenue, so if you look into this route make sure you can buy the units outright and that you won't be charged a monthly fee for them.
What is the "step further" mentioned above involving running wires?
If you want maximum performance and stability, then you need to replace wireless connections with wires wherever possible. The dedicated wireless channels used by mesh systems work very well, but they are still subject to the same interference and physical limitations as other wireless communications.
And if you're running ethernet cable, then you can supply power over ethernet (PoE) to an access point which accepts it and do away with wall wart power bricks, visible cords, and shelf- or end table-mounted access points. Then you can have Wi-Fi that is no more visible or intrusive than a smoke detector, and you are no longer limited to placing them around the perimeter of a room near an outlet and a flat surface. You can place them on the ceiling near the middle of the room as God intended.
Running wires sounds complicated and expensive.
You're probably right. And again, most people should just get a mesh system and be done with it. Especially if you rent or plan to move in the next 5 years or so, a mesh system is easy to pack up and take with you.
Running ethernet cable and setting up a more advanced network should probably only be considered for new construction or if you own and plan to stay put for 5+ years.
This post was edited on 9/14/22 at 11:16 am
10
Posted on 9/14/22 at 11:09 am to Korkstand
Post reserved for more in-depth home networking info, such as upgrading to "prosumer" gear, running your own servers accessible from anywhere, and getting your detached building online (to come later).
How do I get internet in my detached garage/shed/shop/outhouse?
If the building is near enough, the cheapest option is to put a mesh access point at a spot in your house (or outside under cover) nearest the detached building and hope the signal blankets it well enough and penetrates the walls. If the building is far away or has masonry or metal walls, then you will probably need to use a point-to-point (PtP) wireless link. That is, assuming you can't or don't want to dig a trench and run cable.
A PtP link or "bridge" does create a wireless connection, but it is not the same as "Wi-Fi". You won't be able to connect your phone directly to these devices, for example. Instead, you will need two units, one on each building, and they will in effect be a "wireless wire" which functions as if the wires plugged into each unit were actually one wire connecting whatever is on the other ends of those wires together.
A description/overview of this type of setup is as follows:
An ethernet cable will run from your router, probably up through the wall and attic, and penetrate through to the exterior of the house where you will mount one PtP unit. This location should have a good view of the target building. Unobstructed line of sight is preferred. Similarly, the second unit will be mounted to the exterior of the detached building, and an ethernet cable will run from it to a network switch. It is strongly recommended to verify that you can access both the interior and exterior of the potential penetration points before you start drilling holes in things.
These radios are directional so they need to point toward one another, and how precisely they need to be pointed depends on the particulars of your scenario as far as distance and obstructions. Short range ("short" can be hundreds or thousands of feet) and no obstructions, you can probably mount them and eyeball "that way" and get a great signal. Long range (into mile+ territory) and/or obstructions like light forest and you will need to take your time aiming them more accurately.
PtP devices are generally powered via PoE (power-over-ethernet) so they do not need a power cord, however they do need to receive power via the ethernet cable. That means you either need a PoE injector (like a power brick) or a PoE switch at each end. Switches are recommended for tidiness and versatility, and numerous cheap 4-port PoE switches are available.
In addition to the PtP device and switch, you will likely also want an access point to provide Wi-Fi to the interior of your detached building. Your PoE switch can also power this access point.
In the form of ASCII art:
[Modem/Router]<-cable->[PoE Switch]<-cable->[PtP Radio]<-wireless_link->[PtP Radio]<-cable->[PoE Switch]<-cable->[WiFi Access Point]
Without picking favorites, a pair of PtP radios can be had from the likes of Ubiquiti, TP-Link, or any of numerous well-known to lesser-well-known companies for ~$100 for the set. A couple of small 4-port PoE switches can be found for <$50 each, and you can get a standalone WiFi Access Point for <$100. Ethernet cable might be 10-20 cents/foot, so in most cases this will also be less than $100. Cost of gear and materials can be less than $300. If you are handy and have the tools, labor might cost you anywhere from 3 hours to 3 days. If you are not handy, labor might cost you anywhere from a case of beer to several hundred or even a thousand+ dollars.
How badly do you need to watch the game in the garage?
How do I get internet in my detached garage/shed/shop/outhouse?
If the building is near enough, the cheapest option is to put a mesh access point at a spot in your house (or outside under cover) nearest the detached building and hope the signal blankets it well enough and penetrates the walls. If the building is far away or has masonry or metal walls, then you will probably need to use a point-to-point (PtP) wireless link. That is, assuming you can't or don't want to dig a trench and run cable.
A PtP link or "bridge" does create a wireless connection, but it is not the same as "Wi-Fi". You won't be able to connect your phone directly to these devices, for example. Instead, you will need two units, one on each building, and they will in effect be a "wireless wire" which functions as if the wires plugged into each unit were actually one wire connecting whatever is on the other ends of those wires together.
A description/overview of this type of setup is as follows:
An ethernet cable will run from your router, probably up through the wall and attic, and penetrate through to the exterior of the house where you will mount one PtP unit. This location should have a good view of the target building. Unobstructed line of sight is preferred. Similarly, the second unit will be mounted to the exterior of the detached building, and an ethernet cable will run from it to a network switch. It is strongly recommended to verify that you can access both the interior and exterior of the potential penetration points before you start drilling holes in things.
These radios are directional so they need to point toward one another, and how precisely they need to be pointed depends on the particulars of your scenario as far as distance and obstructions. Short range ("short" can be hundreds or thousands of feet) and no obstructions, you can probably mount them and eyeball "that way" and get a great signal. Long range (into mile+ territory) and/or obstructions like light forest and you will need to take your time aiming them more accurately.
PtP devices are generally powered via PoE (power-over-ethernet) so they do not need a power cord, however they do need to receive power via the ethernet cable. That means you either need a PoE injector (like a power brick) or a PoE switch at each end. Switches are recommended for tidiness and versatility, and numerous cheap 4-port PoE switches are available.
In addition to the PtP device and switch, you will likely also want an access point to provide Wi-Fi to the interior of your detached building. Your PoE switch can also power this access point.
In the form of ASCII art:
[Modem/Router]<-cable->[PoE Switch]<-cable->[PtP Radio]<-wireless_link->[PtP Radio]<-cable->[PoE Switch]<-cable->[WiFi Access Point]
Without picking favorites, a pair of PtP radios can be had from the likes of Ubiquiti, TP-Link, or any of numerous well-known to lesser-well-known companies for ~$100 for the set. A couple of small 4-port PoE switches can be found for <$50 each, and you can get a standalone WiFi Access Point for <$100. Ethernet cable might be 10-20 cents/foot, so in most cases this will also be less than $100. Cost of gear and materials can be less than $300. If you are handy and have the tools, labor might cost you anywhere from 3 hours to 3 days. If you are not handy, labor might cost you anywhere from a case of beer to several hundred or even a thousand+ dollars.
How badly do you need to watch the game in the garage?
This post was edited on 9/14/22 at 3:23 pm
Posted on 9/14/22 at 11:09 am to Korkstand
Post reserved to consolidate links to specific products/tutorials/etc.
AT&T - Configuring IP Passthrough and DMZplus (instructions to use a 3rd party router with an AT&T modem)
AT&T - Configuring IP Passthrough and DMZplus (instructions to use a 3rd party router with an AT&T modem)
This post was edited on 9/20/22 at 9:07 am
Posted on 9/14/22 at 11:59 am to Korkstand
quote:
Korkstand
Well done sir!
Posted on 9/14/22 at 12:29 pm to Korkstand
Posted on 9/14/22 at 1:58 pm to Korkstand
Nice Job Kork.
Posted on 9/14/22 at 3:28 pm to Korkstand
good job 
you might want to consider adding a whole section talking about at&t fiber (and other fiber?) because you can't just add your own mesh system to their router (which you are forced to use) without jumping through some hoops and limiting some of the built-in mesh features.
you might want to consider adding a whole section talking about at&t fiber (and other fiber?) because you can't just add your own mesh system to their router (which you are forced to use) without jumping through some hoops and limiting some of the built-in mesh features.
Posted on 9/14/22 at 3:32 pm to TigerGman
I have an Orbi mesh system (1 router + 1 satellite). I currently have the router in the center of my 2200 sf house, and I get excellent coverage in the whole house. I have my satellite outside in my screened in porch (inside the cabinet for my summer kitchen) because the house is built with concrete blocks, so the signal quality is iffy outside.
However, I have this in my laundry room.
I could leverage this setup by potentially putting the satellite in the attic above my screened in porch. and connecting it to the CAT 5 wire that runs to the bedroom that shares a wall with the patio. I might put the router in the ceiling in the center of the house to be less noticeable.
Just thinking out loud. Am I looking at this wrong?
However, I have this in my laundry room.
I could leverage this setup by potentially putting the satellite in the attic above my screened in porch. and connecting it to the CAT 5 wire that runs to the bedroom that shares a wall with the patio. I might put the router in the ceiling in the center of the house to be less noticeable.
Just thinking out loud. Am I looking at this wrong?
This post was edited on 9/14/22 at 3:52 pm
Posted on 9/14/22 at 3:51 pm to Jax-Tiger
To be sure I understand correctly, one of the cables pictured here runs to a jack in a bedroom, and you want to pull the bedroom end of the cable back up through the wall (eliminating the jack) and use it to connect your Orbi satellite in the attic? I assume you have one of the Orbi PoE satellite units so you do not need 110v nearby? You will need a PoE source device in your wall box pictured here.
As to putting electronics in the attic in general, you may be playing with (hopefully metaphorical) fire by doing so, but I know many people (including myself) with electronics in the attic running for years without a problem. The preference of course is to keep electronics in air conditioned space, so do you think one of the Orbi ceiling-mount units would work alright for you if you're concerned with aesthetics?
As to putting electronics in the attic in general, you may be playing with (hopefully metaphorical) fire by doing so, but I know many people (including myself) with electronics in the attic running for years without a problem. The preference of course is to keep electronics in air conditioned space, so do you think one of the Orbi ceiling-mount units would work alright for you if you're concerned with aesthetics?
Posted on 9/14/22 at 4:14 pm to Korkstand
Thanks for starting this thread. I have read about having wired set ups for a couple of years on this site, but have never really been in a position to do it. I got the Orbi mesh system in Indiana and brought it with me when I moved to Florida. My house is brand new and wired with Cat 5, but all of the connections are where the builder decided to put them, not where I need them.
There is an electric outlet in the attic. About 10 feet from where I would put the satellite. I might need an extension cord.
Thought about this, too. The router could go in the ceiling of the Landry room, where I wouldn't care about anesthetics. I would probably have to run an extension cord further for this one. Probably won't do this.
quote:
I assume you have one of the Orbi PoE satellite units so you do not need 110v nearby? You will need a PoE source device in your wall box pictured here.
There is an electric outlet in the attic. About 10 feet from where I would put the satellite. I might need an extension cord.
quote:
The preference of course is to keep electronics in air conditioned space, so do you think one of the Orbi ceiling-mount units would work alright for you if you're concerned with aesthetics?
Thought about this, too. The router could go in the ceiling of the Landry room, where I wouldn't care about anesthetics. I would probably have to run an extension cord further for this one. Probably won't do this.
This post was edited on 9/14/22 at 4:23 pm
Posted on 9/14/22 at 4:22 pm to Korkstand
Don't forget there are open source networking options as well. It is even possible to install it on an old machine laying around the house and have an enterprise class router/firewall.
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 1:11 am
Posted on 9/14/22 at 5:02 pm to wheelr
quote:Yes thank you. I will update the top 3 posts in this thread from time to time, and I do plan to get into more of the details of networking including a few of the router/firewall options as you mentioned. I will try to go over most of the hardware and services that a network needs, and when and why you might want to split some of them onto their own hardware or virtualize them or whatever. Might get into some of the common "homelab" gear and servers that people run since I know a lot of people want to move away from cloud services if possible.
Don't forget there are open source networking options as well. It is even possible to install it on an old machine laying around the house and have an enterprise class router/firewall.
I'm not a pro, though, so I would appreciate contributions and I will copy with attribution or just link to the relevant posts within the thread.
Posted on 9/14/22 at 5:05 pm to CAD703X
quote:I mentioned putting the modem/router combo units into passthrough or bridge mode, but if you have a specific model in mind and link to instructions I'll gladly add it to start building an index of links.
you might want to consider adding a whole section talking about at&t fiber (and other fiber?) because you can't just add your own mesh system to their router (which you are forced to use) without jumping through some hoops and limiting some of the built-in mesh features.
Posted on 9/14/22 at 7:18 pm to wheelr
quote:
opnsense
tGOAT
This post was edited on 9/14/22 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 9/14/22 at 8:09 pm to bluebarracuda
quote:I don't have a whole lot of experience with it and probably haven't touched 10% of the config, but I did install it on one of these mini PC firewall appliances to replace a consumer grade netgear router at a small business that was really testing its limits. It's been a huge upgrade so far and much more stable. I have disabled the wifi on it and put the old router in AP mode.quote:tGOAT
opnsense
Posted on 9/14/22 at 9:49 pm to Korkstand
quote:
including a few of the router/firewall options
Great thread. If it gets to the point of network-level ad blocking (where I, of course, whitelist TD. Who wouldn’t want to see ads here? It’s the Peacock streaming app that I don’t want them on! I’m sure if that comes up, you’ll mention how easy it is to let them through on specific websites), I’ve just come across Technitium. PiHole is sort of the answer for network-wide DNS-based ad blocking, but
1) Rasberry Pi computers have become expensive
2) second machines are impractical in some applications
3) unpopular opinion, but Docker…sucks. The WSL2 backend portion had a unfixable memory leak. I wrote a config file that it recognized, but it would still just hog resources (16gb of RAM or more. The computer had an i5-8500. Not a badass rig, but when a computer with that + 24GB of RAM becomes unstable after about 96 hours of uptime consistently because the virtual machine can’t stop but hogging all the resources when only running a program designed to run on a super low power ARM system, there’s a significant problem. Even odder, task manager would report RAM usage to what I had in the config file on that specific line, but the total system memory would get eaten up and return to a reasonable percentage once the process was killed. So the config file idea that seems to work only seemed to, somehow, trick my taskmanager into not recognizing what was holding all my memory hostage)
Enter Technetium. It basically does everything pihole does, but it takes a hair longer to configure (you have to select specific lists to send to a black hole rather than the default (and phenomenally chosen) list that PiHole uses. It also just has a straight native Windows and OSX app with simple installer.
Is Linux better than windows? Yeah.
Do a lot of “homelabbers” have a Linux box, NAS, or a Pi already? Of course
Is this thread aimed at people who play around with those types of things? It seems like it is aimed at a crowd that probably isn’t comfortable using the command line, alternative OS, and this would be a great way to demonstrate DNS, DCHP server function options that I would consider “easy” to learn and use. So maybe, if you’re considering that idea or anyone else is interested in network-wide as blocking, this may be an easier/more practical way to bring it in.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 7:34 am to Korkstand
Great thread! It should get a sticky.
One problem I ran into a few years ago when I first got my Orbi was it wasn't easy to connect 2.4 GHz smart plugs to it. Is this still problem, or an issue for any other mesh routers?
IIRC the issue was the steps required to connect the plugs were only done on 5 GHz on the Orbi unless you temporarily switched the router to only work on 2.4 GHz which was more complicated that you'd expect. I ended up turning off the Orbi for a few minutes and plugging in an old router that I gave the same name and password to connect the plugs, so when the Orbi came back up they automatically connected to it.
One problem I ran into a few years ago when I first got my Orbi was it wasn't easy to connect 2.4 GHz smart plugs to it. Is this still problem, or an issue for any other mesh routers?
IIRC the issue was the steps required to connect the plugs were only done on 5 GHz on the Orbi unless you temporarily switched the router to only work on 2.4 GHz which was more complicated that you'd expect. I ended up turning off the Orbi for a few minutes and plugging in an old router that I gave the same name and password to connect the plugs, so when the Orbi came back up they automatically connected to it.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 10:54 am to Hopeful Doc
Great thread Korkstand. I know some things but lacking in many areas so I may come here to ask yall some Qs once I get the rack fully opperational.
I plan to run pihole on a Pi but have never fooled with one yet so not to that point. Will that program also run on a Pi? I scored 4 Pi4 8gb in a bourbon trade so I stuffed them into a Pi rack from uctronics that will boot from SSDs. Never fooled with them but looking forward to learning some things.
quote:
Enter Technetium
I plan to run pihole on a Pi but have never fooled with one yet so not to that point. Will that program also run on a Pi? I scored 4 Pi4 8gb in a bourbon trade so I stuffed them into a Pi rack from uctronics that will boot from SSDs. Never fooled with them but looking forward to learning some things.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:00 am to NOLAGT
Since you already have the Pi, you might as well run PiHole
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:10 am to bluebarracuda
quote:
Since you already have the Pi, you might as well run PiHole
I haven't got to the point yet that I started looking into what all I want to run I just saw Pihole tossed around a lot. Not sure if there are other better options.
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