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Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:09 pm to ohiovol
quote:
No automatic places in Champions League. 75% of qualification spots in the Super League would be guaranteed, not earned. That automatically guarantees a lower level of competition (ex: teams like Arsenal and Tottenham being included despite being nowhere near the best teams in their own country this season.)
so your concern for the ESL is that it's policies may be bad for the ESL? that's not really swaying me
quote:
Teams would be treating premier league games as opportunities for bench players.
they already do this, though
so your argument for ESL is the same for UCL, cups, etc.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
1. what is the actual worry of the Super League? I'm assuming that the clubs stay in their domestic leagues and there is still a UCL, etc. is this just about some clubs getting more money potentially? it seems that all these rivalry and history arguments really boil down to just a money issue
Yes these specific clubs get more money, but it also essentially franchises the clubs, where owners can reap rewards without the threat of relegation.
And boiling everything down to money issues really misunderstands the historical arguments. There is a fundamental misunderstanding at the heart of the ESL, namely that people tune in to CL games for the sake of the spectacle itself, and not, you know, because teams want to advance in a tournament. It also is predicated on a foreign viewership that doesn't necessarily exist yet, and has no guarantees to exist in the future.
quote:
2. what arguments against the Super League exist that don't also apply to the Champion's League?
Hint: In one case, domestic performance matters. In another, it doesn't.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
they already do this, though
But why do they do this? Teams also do this in the group stages of the CL, or in games where tie is already decided.
quote:
so your concern for the ESL is that it's policies may be bad for the ESL? that's not really swaying me
Has the increased Sky money been good for the sport in general?
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:14 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
There is a fundamental misunderstanding at the heart of the ESL, namely that people tune in to CL games for the sake of the spectacle itself, and not, you know, because teams want to advance in a tournament. It also is predicated on a foreign viewership that doesn't necessarily exist yet, and has no guarantees to exist in the future.
i understand that you think the ESL is making mistakes for the ESL. i wasn't clear. what is the worry to everything other than the ESL? other than money, what effects to things like domestic leagues, UCL, etc. are you actually worried about the ESL causing?
quote:
Hint: In one case, domestic performance matters. In another, it doesn't.
again, this is just making arguments saying ESL is making mistakes for its brand
also, the UCL-based "performance" argument does create issues b/c the UCL money does allow funding for clubs to stay at that level. there's a reason why clubs turn to shite when they go through a rough patch and miss out on postseason money. it's like a mini-relegation that does lead to actual relegation
but i still don't see how ESL having auto-qualifiers affects football elsewhere in any way (other than money)
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:16 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
But why do they do this?
too many money-making opportunities
ESL won't be the last one, even if ESL is killed. acting like it's killing the sport when it's just the latest money-making opportunity is why i said it was histrionic earlier
quote:
Has the increased Sky money been good for the sport in general?
so your issue is money? thought so
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what effects to things like domestic leagues, UCL, etc. are you actually worried about the ESL causing?
That they ban these teams associated with the ESL from the domestic leagues
So you won’t have an EPL season with those 6 clubs
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:19 pm to I Bleed Garnet
quote:
That they ban these teams associated with the ESL from the domestic leagues
well that's something different (and i was getting there)
the UEFA/FIFA response to the ESL has been 100x worse than the threats of the ESL
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:21 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
well that's something different (and i was getting there)
Agreed
quote:
the UEFA/FIFA response to the ESL has been 100x worse than the threats of the ESL
I believe they won’t stick to this threat.
This post was edited on 4/19/21 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i understand that you think the ESL is making mistakes for the ESL. i wasn't clear. what is the worry to everything other than the ESL? other than money, what effects to things like domestic leagues, UCL, etc. are you actually worried about the ESL causing?
Firstly, I'm worried about the massive blowback. The UK government statement an hour ago makes it clear that there is going to be something massive if the groups at stake don't work out an agreement. Secondly, the funding model in football is broken, and that threatens the existence of the amateur game in Europe, where teams are only able maximize the resources they have available according to the guidelines of their specific FA, i.e. standardizations for specific levels of the pyramid. Fixing that funding model does not involve, in any way, more money going to the top, where owners like the Glazers and Kronekes have used the Sky money tremendously poorly. Maybe people don't understand how individual FA's operate, but the trickle-down agreements in place since the advent of TV money have allowed the grassroots movement to grow. And to be frank, I don't trust the Kronekes to see the net effect of it on the level of play in England, especially if the UK government focuses on work permits and visas, limiting the team to only UK citizens, for example. The answer for fixing the funding model is to do the exact opposite of whatever the Kronekes suggest. Again, listen to Wenger, and not Stan.
quote:
but i still don't see how ESL having auto-qualifiers affects football elsewhere in any way (other than money)
Please realize the implication of your statement. Other than money shouldn't be in parenthesis. A functional funding model has to be implemented, but this isn't it. And given the UK government's statement released an hour ago, the blowback is going to be something these clubs probably didn't anticipate. There is only so much money to go around. It is intensely rich that the FAs of Germany and France have helped build up the trophy cabinents of English clubs, and then those English clubs think that the net effect of the growth of the grassroots game, from either top down investment, as in the French case, or bottom-up investment, as in the German case, won't affect them. It is a myopia fitting for any project in which Kroneke is involved.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
Without CL doors up for grabs when city run away with the league there won’t be the entertaining battle of who gets in to the CL left to keep people tuned in. It’s like the NFL getting rid of the ranking for playoff spots(we’ll just give it to these 12 teams) every year
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
I'm guessing well read Lebron played a big role in this.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:24 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
too many money-making opportunities
ESL won't be the last one, even if ESL is killed. acting like it's killing the sport when it's just the latest money-making opportunity is why i said it was histrionic earlier
Do I have to explain the structure of European football to you?
quote:
so your issue is money? thought so
My issue has been youth development from the beginning, and it is intensely rich that a bunch of Frenchmen, formed by Clairefontaine, built Arsenal into a major club, only for Kroneke to think that somehow he built it. Just utter insanity.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
so your concern for the ESL is that it's policies may be bad for the ESL? that's not really swaying me
My concern is it would transform the top European competition from a merit based competition into a legacy based competition.
quote:
they already do this, though
so your argument for ESL is the same for UCL, cups, etc.
They do it occasionally to prioritize other matches, but they still take league play seriously. Currently, qualifying for Europe is still a major driving force that ensures the top 6 have to field strong teams throughout the season. With qualification guaranteed for ESL, there would be no incentive to take domestic leagues seriously unless you have a legit shot at the title. Teams like Chelsea would have started phoning in league play in January.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:27 pm to crazy4lsu
Vedran Corluka = Skylar Green
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:28 pm to S
Mathieu Flamini = Tyrann Mathieu
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but i still don't see how ESL having auto-qualifiers affects football elsewhere in any way (other than money)
This sounds like someone that would be okay with Alabama and Clemson getting 2 of the 4 playoff spots automatically regardless of regular season record because of their past performances.
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:33 pm to crazy4lsu
Pablo Hernández = Early Doucet
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:36 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Firstly, I'm worried about the massive blowback. T
i agree. it seems this is much worse than the threats of the ESL
quote:
Fixing that funding model does not involve, in any way, more money going to the top, where owners like the Glazers and Kronekes have used the Sky money tremendously poorly. Maybe people don't understand how individual FA's operate, but the trickle-down agreements in place since the advent of TV money have allowed the grassroots movement to grow. And to be frank, I don't trust the Kronekes to see the net effect of it on the level of play in England, especially if the UK government focuses on work permits and visas, limiting the team to only UK citizens, for example. The answer for fixing the funding model is to do the exact opposite of whatever the Kronekes suggest.
quote:
Other than money shouldn't be in parenthesis.
in my original question i straight up asked if the issue was just money, b/c it seems like it's only a worry over money and not this cataclysm that the football media and orgs are screaming about right now
now i understand that you're arguing money is the issue in a much broader perspective, and i agree with you. i'm just saying the latest money-making endeavor doesn't move the needle with all the other money grabs out there. that's why i brought up the UCL initially, b/c it's a stratifying money grab itself more than anything else
Posted on 4/19/21 at 1:37 pm to S
Joan Capedevilla = Cameron Vaughn
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