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Posted on 10/14/15 at 7:15 am to Tuskkman
quote:
K doesn't need firing now, we have beaten so big national teams, seems JK trusted in an old team too long, I think we need to trust him going forward with the young guys, we are way too old. If he starts out bad in the WC Qualifiers we can then fire him.
The problem with that is he hasn't shown anything to make you think he will do a good job of building the next group to take over for the old guard.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 7:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we're not even doing well in CONCACAF right now, a group that we've dominated even when we were terrible (like 1998)
Jurgys expectations were unrealistic. The players aren't good enough to fulfill his proactive vision, and he's not a good enough manager to figure out what to do with these players to help them win. The whole thing is screwed at this point. The experiment is over.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 7:23 am to LuckySo-n-So
quote:And Guzan, Johnson, Morales, and Cameron.
Only USMNT player that starts and contributes heavily to a team in a world top flight league is Tim Howard. (Sorry, MLS is not a world top flight league)
This post was edited on 10/14/15 at 7:25 am
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:28 am to Dijkstra
I feel like Jurgen has "experimented" with so many different tactics and player positioning that, at this point, to even revert back to the classic American counter-attack game would leave our players scratching their heads, and our game would be an even bigger jumble of WTF than it already is. Our players are expected to play a style and scheme that, as a whole team, I don't think we have the talent for. Our passing is a mess, our first touches often give the ball way, and there is a serious disconnect among the midfielders and the back line. All of this leads to us being continuously dominated in possession, yet there seems to be virtually zero change in strategy to remedy this.
We have the talent to be on top of CONCACAF, and we should all firmly believe that. I'm not upset with Jurgen over our positioning among the rest of the world, I'm upset with how far we've slid against the teams in our own region. I can look past the 3rd place game in the Gold Cup because 3rd place games are pointless, but the losses to Jamaica, Mexico, and Costa Rica are incredibly worrisome.
It was alarming when we were barely beating the likes of Antigua & Barbuda during WC qualifying in the last go-round, and there was a time when I thought Jurgen had moved us past that. However, we've regressed significantly in the past year - much more so than is excusable. I really don't think we've gone anywhere under Klinsmann.
If Jurgen doesn't have our guys running passing drills where pressure is constantly being applied at all times, then I'm not sure what is going on. That seems to be the ONLY tactic that CONCACAF opponents have against us, and we fold instantly.
We have the talent to be on top of CONCACAF, and we should all firmly believe that. I'm not upset with Jurgen over our positioning among the rest of the world, I'm upset with how far we've slid against the teams in our own region. I can look past the 3rd place game in the Gold Cup because 3rd place games are pointless, but the losses to Jamaica, Mexico, and Costa Rica are incredibly worrisome.
It was alarming when we were barely beating the likes of Antigua & Barbuda during WC qualifying in the last go-round, and there was a time when I thought Jurgen had moved us past that. However, we've regressed significantly in the past year - much more so than is excusable. I really don't think we've gone anywhere under Klinsmann.
If Jurgen doesn't have our guys running passing drills where pressure is constantly being applied at all times, then I'm not sure what is going on. That seems to be the ONLY tactic that CONCACAF opponents have against us, and we fold instantly.
This post was edited on 10/14/15 at 8:32 am
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:31 am to Dijkstra
quote:
If US Soccer stands behind Jurgen, what does it take for him to win back the fans? What would he have to do for you personally to accept that he will continue to mage the USMNT?
he'd have to develop a clear vision, communicate that vision, and drop his grudges and apologize to mend the damage
with landon and feilhaber's age and our inability to go back in time to redo the gold cup (or the play-in game), he's not going to have much of a chance
quote:
I just can't take watching this constant attempt to play formations that we are badly equipped for positionally (Bedoya the CDM) while rotating tons of new faces in for the sake of seeing what happens
exactly. no vision
we have no structure in games and no vision of where we're going
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:39 am to Bluefin
I've touched on the experimentation before and it gets me annoyed every time I think about it. We wasted a year with bullshite.
The tactics are another issue. Are we supposed to be a possession team? If so why is there no off the ball movement? Why is there such a disconnect between our back and MF and our MF and forwards? Why can't we make creative or overlapping runs? When was the last time you saw someone make a dangerous run off a defender's shoulder and had a through ball played into their feet?
I think it is also quite clear we need 2 CDMs sitting in front of our back 4. Without that we have our wide MFs dropping just as deep as the back 4 and when we gain possession there are little to no outlets available. We played almost the entire second half last night in our own half. It was depressing.
Tl;dr - we look retarded
The tactics are another issue. Are we supposed to be a possession team? If so why is there no off the ball movement? Why is there such a disconnect between our back and MF and our MF and forwards? Why can't we make creative or overlapping runs? When was the last time you saw someone make a dangerous run off a defender's shoulder and had a through ball played into their feet?
I think it is also quite clear we need 2 CDMs sitting in front of our back 4. Without that we have our wide MFs dropping just as deep as the back 4 and when we gain possession there are little to no outlets available. We played almost the entire second half last night in our own half. It was depressing.
Tl;dr - we look retarded
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:41 am to NewbombII
quote:
Look, I am sick and tired of hearing the big JK excuse that our players are not good enough. The team that beat the US tonight made it to the quarters in 2014 and lost on penalties. Fire Jurgey!
I mean, our players are NOT good enough to do what we all truly want the USMNT to do, which is legitimately compete at the highest level.
But, punching above weight with solid, cohesive teams is pretty much an American tradition in international team sports. JK has guaranteed that we lack those characteristics.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:44 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I mean, our players are NOT good enough to do what we all truly want the USMNT to do, which is legitimately compete at the highest level.
His final "vision" won't be realized for years. This starts at the youth level. It will take time and is his job as technical director. His job as the coach is to field the best team possible that we presently have and deploy them with the best tactics to fit their strengths. He has failed miserably at this as of late.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 8:47 am to etm512
quote:
His final "vision" won't be realized for years. This starts at the youth level. It will take time and is his job as technical director. His job as the coach is to field the best team possible that we presently have and deploy them with the best tactics to fit their strengths. He has failed miserably at this as of late.
I think most would agree with this
Posted on 10/14/15 at 9:12 am to Tuskkman
quote:
we have beaten so big national teams
Are you talking about our lucky as frick victories over the Ghanaian and Dutch dumpster fires? Or our victory over a sub-par German team who has limped through Euro qualifying?
quote:
I think we need to trust him going forward with the young guys
What has given you the confidence to trust in Jurgy?
Posted on 10/14/15 at 9:58 am to LuckySo-n-So
quote:
Only USMNT player that starts and contributes heavily to a team in a world top flight league is Tim Howard. (Sorry, MLS is not a world top flight league)
well, that's not true.
Cameron (PL), Fabian (BL), Morales (BL), Aron Johansson (BL), Guzan (PL)
Posted on 10/14/15 at 10:47 am to Tennessee Jed
quote:
well, that's not true.
Cameron (PL), Fabian (BL), Morales (BL), Aron Johansson (BL), Guzan (PL)
Doesn't Bedoya also start for Nantes when healthy? (Ligue 1 surely qualifies too)
Posted on 10/14/15 at 11:26 am to oauron
When I say that we don't have the players to compete, I'm not talking about the guys who make up starting XI when healthy. When fully healthy, we have the guys to fill out a solid little lineup. What I mean is that when any one of them is unavailable for any reason, we have zero options in terms of an adequate replacement. Will we ever have another 10 in the entire pool? It doesn't feel like it.
We end up moving our best players to positions of need that leaves them out of position while padding the rest of whatever formation we're playing on the day with your Brek Shea and Alvarado type players. What's worse is we try to experiment in these formations where it only serves to highlight how unequipped a lot of our average players are. I mean, if we're going to lose due to a lack of fullback options, being too narrow at the back, and bad midfield play, why not say frick it and start prepping the 3-5-2 or something? Even when we play a flat 4-4-2, we look like we're experimenting with something silly unless all of our best players are in.
We end up moving our best players to positions of need that leaves them out of position while padding the rest of whatever formation we're playing on the day with your Brek Shea and Alvarado type players. What's worse is we try to experiment in these formations where it only serves to highlight how unequipped a lot of our average players are. I mean, if we're going to lose due to a lack of fullback options, being too narrow at the back, and bad midfield play, why not say frick it and start prepping the 3-5-2 or something? Even when we play a flat 4-4-2, we look like we're experimenting with something silly unless all of our best players are in.
This post was edited on 10/14/15 at 11:27 am
Posted on 10/14/15 at 11:29 am to Dijkstra
For a long time now, multiple managers have made do with the players we have and we've thrived--under Bob Bradley we were much better than under Klinsmann.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 11:48 am to AmericanHoop
At the moment, yeah, we were. That being said, until this year, there really isn't much of a difference in the amount of success under either manager. We pretty much stayed where we were with an 1-2% increase in wins.
The problem is that we seem to want to progress, but we've shown that we're still very dependent on the style we were supposed to progress out of. Like I said before, it wouldn't be tough at all to revert to what we've always done with semi-good lineup choices and be successful again. I'm concerned, though, with what I see in our immediate future in terms of being able to attack and employ a proactive approach to the our style of play.
Without everyone at 100%, we simply don't have the players to do anything else outside of what we've always done. This isn't me saying it's not Jurgen's fault. I'm just saying that we still have to eventually move forward at some point, and I'm not sure how we can do that with what we have available. We shouldn't be looking to find someone who'll just go back to what we've always done for good. Even though the Klinsmann experiment crashed and burned, we still need to be looking to slowly transition to something else or we'll never truly be able to compete with the best teams. This is something that'll take generations, but we have to figure out what we want before we can do that.
The problem is that we seem to want to progress, but we've shown that we're still very dependent on the style we were supposed to progress out of. Like I said before, it wouldn't be tough at all to revert to what we've always done with semi-good lineup choices and be successful again. I'm concerned, though, with what I see in our immediate future in terms of being able to attack and employ a proactive approach to the our style of play.
Without everyone at 100%, we simply don't have the players to do anything else outside of what we've always done. This isn't me saying it's not Jurgen's fault. I'm just saying that we still have to eventually move forward at some point, and I'm not sure how we can do that with what we have available. We shouldn't be looking to find someone who'll just go back to what we've always done for good. Even though the Klinsmann experiment crashed and burned, we still need to be looking to slowly transition to something else or we'll never truly be able to compete with the best teams. This is something that'll take generations, but we have to figure out what we want before we can do that.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 11:51 am to Dijkstra
quote:
What I mean is that when any one of them is unavailable for any reason, we have zero options in terms of an adequate replacement.
This is literally the exact position of basically every mid-tier side in the world.
You could give these back-up players chances in their natural positions though, instead of jamming them wide or deep and expecting them to perform. That would go a long way in building depth.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 11:58 am to Dijkstra
quote:
Without everyone at 100%, we simply don't have the players to do anything else outside of what we've always done. This isn't me saying it's not Jurgen's fault. I'm just saying that we still have to eventually move forward at some point, and I'm not sure how we can do that with what we have available.
This is absolute horseshite. We beat fricking Spain with Ricardo Clark at CDM. Jay fricking Demerit was our CB. He wasn't even starting at the beginning of the tournament. He was a back-up who was asked to do a very simple job.
How are we supposed to move forward if we've moved back? Moving forward is a misnomer as well. It's clear there is an American style that works on the international level. Up until 2012, it was the same style the god damn Germans used on the international level. There isn't moving forward because our style was in its infancy. Outside of Spain and Germany, the possession style is extremely hard to implement. It's why international soccer is much less entertaining, because teams basically live in the low-block and look for opportunities to counter.
Your arguments are lacking context, and therefore read overly simplistic. You don't build a team by disregarding what worked before. Even Spain's transformation came after careful study about what worked and what didn't. Germany's transformation was started in 2000 and required nearly 100 million dollars a year at the club level.
We aren't going to get that type of investment for the next decade, but we can simply do what we do well. That would be a start.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 12:07 pm to crazy4lsu
I agree with you 100%. We're definitely underachieving dramatically with what we currently have. I just don't think that we have the players to elevate out of that mid-tier side category for some time. Regardless of the result, the goal with Jurgen was always to progress and raise the standard of play. That hasn't happened, but I don't think we should just say "Maybe in 10 years" without an honest attempt at looking at what type of players we're clearly struggling to develop.
Sure, awful tactical choices are what contributed to this slide downhill, but we need to stop making excuses that we don't have major issues in terms of finding players to fill these roles in a country with 300 million people. We need to find consistency to right the ship, but we also can't just forget why we wanted a guy like Jurgen in the first place. The entire youth development aspect is a huge reason he's still here. We have a very clear issue with discovering and developing talent, and we'll have to address that regardless of who is next in line as manager.
Sure, awful tactical choices are what contributed to this slide downhill, but we need to stop making excuses that we don't have major issues in terms of finding players to fill these roles in a country with 300 million people. We need to find consistency to right the ship, but we also can't just forget why we wanted a guy like Jurgen in the first place. The entire youth development aspect is a huge reason he's still here. We have a very clear issue with discovering and developing talent, and we'll have to address that regardless of who is next in line as manager.
Posted on 10/14/15 at 12:10 pm to oauron
quote:THANK YOU
Doesn't Bedoya also start for Nantes when healthy? (Ligue 1 surely qualifies too)
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