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Started By
Message
re: Klinsmann's next task as USA coach.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 2:08 pm to Tennessee Jed
Posted on 7/3/14 at 2:08 pm to Tennessee Jed
Right, and where would the funding come from?
1
Posted on 7/3/14 at 2:09 pm to Tiger Phil
The ones who care for soccer will.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 2:10 pm to Tiger Phil
quote:
Right, and where would the funding come from?
Nike and USSF
Posted on 7/3/14 at 3:13 pm to cheesesteak501
quote:
The ones who care for soccer will.
I disagree.
As a father, I don't really care what the supposed payoff would be, I value keeping my family together over just about anything. I would not want to trade away my child's time at home with our family for some promise of "maybe they'll become a pro" or "perhaps one day they'll get looked at by national team coaches".
Posted on 7/3/14 at 3:20 pm to Tiger Phil
That's a decision hundreds of thousands of families make every year around the world. There was a feature on ESPN last week about how Brazilian kids as young as 8 or 9 are out practicing for hours to hone skills. They do this in the hope of being admitted to academies/clubs because they want to be professionals.
They have tremendous burdens on them because they want to help their families. It was inspiring and terribly sad all at the same time. But they learn by playing with their friends, then hoping to be good enough to get into the academies, even those set up by long-forgotten, unfancied third and fourth division clubs.
They have tremendous burdens on them because they want to help their families. It was inspiring and terribly sad all at the same time. But they learn by playing with their friends, then hoping to be good enough to get into the academies, even those set up by long-forgotten, unfancied third and fourth division clubs.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 3:49 pm to guttata
quote:
Why is it that the women's national team can have so much success compared to the men's?
What sports are our best female athletes playing?
Soccer and hoops.
What sports are our best male athletes playing?
Football, hoops, and baseball.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 3:52 pm to Sophandros
quote:
baseball
There are a handful of third world countries that are miles ahead of our best athletes then.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 3:58 pm to RedPop4
I have to be honest - I've read that article like 3 times and I am still not sure exactly what they are proposing. I guess it's mostly because I don't really know how the academy systems in other countries are organized and run and funded.
As others have said, the problem of funding is a significant one. I just don't think the MLS clubs have the financial wherewithal to fund any comprehensive system of clubs. The big Euro clubs might have it but I guess it boils down to a cost/reward thing for them whether they want to do it in the US.
With regard to the pay for play clubs, I am ambivalent. I think they were for a long time the only thing that kept soccer going (at least here in Louisiana) after the early playground rec stages. But I think that by their very nature they exclude a very large percentage of kids. So they've been kind of a necessary evil but it may be time for something else to take hold.
I also think that there is evidence in the baseball field that the pay to play (i.e.: travel teams) system has NOT produced better players overall from the old time Little League type structure. If anything it seems like other parts of the world have gained significant ground on us in baseball.
The article seems to frown on high school programs along with college. But I can see where the existing high school infrastructure could be used if (and of course the if is a huge one) it could somehow work in harmony with national system. Things like fields, coaches, transportation, perhaps uniforms all can be provided or at least contributed to by the athletic department which makes it possible for the less affluent to participate. Plus there is potential built in student body support, press, community support and the like. For the things the school can't or doesn't provide, fund raising is a lot easier for a high school team.
Of course to be truly effective at developing players the school system would have to eventually encompass the Jr. High age kids.
As others have said, the problem of funding is a significant one. I just don't think the MLS clubs have the financial wherewithal to fund any comprehensive system of clubs. The big Euro clubs might have it but I guess it boils down to a cost/reward thing for them whether they want to do it in the US.
With regard to the pay for play clubs, I am ambivalent. I think they were for a long time the only thing that kept soccer going (at least here in Louisiana) after the early playground rec stages. But I think that by their very nature they exclude a very large percentage of kids. So they've been kind of a necessary evil but it may be time for something else to take hold.
I also think that there is evidence in the baseball field that the pay to play (i.e.: travel teams) system has NOT produced better players overall from the old time Little League type structure. If anything it seems like other parts of the world have gained significant ground on us in baseball.
The article seems to frown on high school programs along with college. But I can see where the existing high school infrastructure could be used if (and of course the if is a huge one) it could somehow work in harmony with national system. Things like fields, coaches, transportation, perhaps uniforms all can be provided or at least contributed to by the athletic department which makes it possible for the less affluent to participate. Plus there is potential built in student body support, press, community support and the like. For the things the school can't or doesn't provide, fund raising is a lot easier for a high school team.
Of course to be truly effective at developing players the school system would have to eventually encompass the Jr. High age kids.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:00 pm to Tennessee Jed
quote:
said in his post mortem on the US’s World Cup exit against Ghana. “You pay for having your kid play soccer because your goal is not that your kid becomes a professional soccer player – because your goal is that your kid gets a scholarship in a high school or in a college, which is completely opposite from the rest of the world
It sounds like this is changing, but just solely changing this will go a log way imo.
The who playing soccer in college to then move on to pro is ridiculous and it has to be realised that soccer is different to the other big leagues in the US.
I'm assuming (happy to be corrected) that they will still be kept under the same practise rules as football etc. which instead of being a level playing field like for US only/dominated sports is a massive hold back. At 17/18 it needs to be their job, all day every day not 20 hours a week.
EDIT: High school teams arent a problem, most countries schools will have teams, but unlike the US they arent the main team, the main team is indepenant to school. Again its a culture shift, one that I could see alot of first timers as it were being skeptical of.
As for the pay to play how much are people asked to pay? When I was a kid I used to pay £1 for training and £3 for a game.
Nothing ground breaking but it covered the cost of kits being washed, referees and paying for the space when training.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:04 pm to engvol
quote:
realised that soccer is different to the other big leagues in the US.
Soccer is not different in that sense. It's an antiquated system for all sports. The world doesn't care enough about basketball and football to exploit our inability to develop skilled athletes.
Look at Marc Gasol. He's not even on the radar as a college prospect in 2004. He goes and lives, develops within a Spanish system that focuses, really focuses, on developing a player, and he comes back to the US as one of the top 3 centers in all of basketball.
There was obviously an immense amount of talent there just waiting to be molded. Americans didn't see it, or try to cultivate it, because we don't have the know-how.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:09 pm to Tennessee Jed
Look at the basketball team dominating the NBA right now. It's not a squad filled with former AAU superstars that have 40 inch vertical leaps.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:10 pm to Tennessee Jed
One major issue is that Soccer is not played consistently in Middle or High School across the country.
We do a decent job of getting interest of 5-14 year olds, but once they hit High School... they move on to Football, basketball, baseball, track, golf, tennis, whatever.
The Women's national team is helped by all of the colleges that support soccer teams with scholarships....
How many men's soccer teams get funded?
We do a decent job of getting interest of 5-14 year olds, but once they hit High School... they move on to Football, basketball, baseball, track, golf, tennis, whatever.
The Women's national team is helped by all of the colleges that support soccer teams with scholarships....
How many men's soccer teams get funded?
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:14 pm to Mahootney
I don't think you get it, and that's ok.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:18 pm to engvol
quote:
As for the pay to play how much are people asked to pay?
Thousands of dollars per year. I haven't written that check, yet.
I seem to remember it being around 5 or 6K per year, in total.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:22 pm to Tennessee Jed
So a team of say 16 will bring in around $100k!?!?!?
It should not cost that much to run a team at a grass roots level.
Seriously that is ridiculous
It should not cost that much to run a team at a grass roots level.
Seriously that is ridiculous
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:26 pm to engvol
quote:
So a team of say 16 will bring in around $100k!?!?!?
Easily, especially for one of the better youth clubs. A huge portion of that is travel. In a single calendar year, a top 2 team from Memphis might have to spend three weekends in texas, a weekend in Charlotte, a weekend in Chicago, short trips to Nashville, etc..
Then you have to pay the coaches, the equipment, the training ground, and everyone else covers the 2 or 3 exceptional players that can't afford it.
That's not considering the years they travel to Europe for tournaments.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:27 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:36 pm to Tiger Phil
quote:
We can't even get the two regions in Texas to do youth soccer the same. North Texas plays 11v11 starting at U10, while South Texas plays 8v8 through U12.
How long has this been going on? I bet South Texas ends up producing more professional players in the future than North Texas.
quote:
I disagree.
As a father, I don't really care what the supposed payoff would be, I value keeping my family together over just about anything. I would not want to trade away my child's time at home with our family for some promise of "maybe they'll become a pro" or "perhaps one day they'll get looked at by national team coaches".
As a parent, if your kid had a dream and was really dedicated to accomplishing that dream and willing to bust his arse and do anything to attain it, but it required him to move away from home at 15, do you do it?
My parents did for one of my siblings. She's now a professional in Europe. It was the hardest thing in the world for my parents at the time but they don't regret it at all now. In fact, they see how happy she is and couldn't feel better about that hard choice they had to make. She couldn't have gotten the training to fulfill her dream here at home, so it was a necessary step. It worked out for her. For some it doesn't, but those who try and fail never have that lingering question of "what if?"
Posted on 7/3/14 at 4:38 pm to engvol
quote:
As for the pay to play how much are people asked to pay? When I was a kid I used to pay £1 for training and £3 for a game.
Nothing ground breaking but it covered the cost of kits being washed, referees and paying for the space when training.
Between fees for the club, coaches, national or state organization, insurance, uniforms, referees, and travel I think a low figure would be about $1,000.00 per kid per season. And I don't think its rare that it goes significantly above that. And as far as I've seen there are no gate fees, concession sales or anything like that to defray expenses in the club system.
In high school the coaches and insurance are paid by the school, the field is provided by the school, the buses for away games are provided by the school (for the kids - parents still have to travel of course), the gate usually covers the ref fees (at least for us), concessions make enough to defray expenses like balls and practice equipment, etc., fund raisers like jambalya or pastalaya dinner sales cover things like uniforms and fees for tournaments (and in a good year maybe even hotel rooms for the kids for out of town tournaments) then there are things like t-shirt sales, pools, etc. that can help with things like warm ups and even coats for the subs on the bench in those below 32 degree games.
So, it's not free to play HS ball but it's a hell of a lot more affordable than club ball.
* just saw the posts about about 5-6K in Tenn. I don't think it regularly gets quite that high here in La. (probably not as much long distance traveling) but I do think for some of the top teams it can get in the 3K+ range.
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 4:44 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 5:40 pm to Methuselah
quote:
In high school the coaches and insurance are paid by the school, the field is provided by the school, the buses for away games are provided by the school (for the kids - parents still have to travel of course), the gate usually covers the ref fees (at least for us), concessions make enough to defray expenses like balls and practice equipment, etc., fund raisers like jambalya or pastalaya dinner sales cover things like uniforms and fees for tournaments (and in a good year maybe even hotel rooms for the kids for out of town tournaments) then there are things like t-shirt sales, pools, etc. that can help with things like warm ups and even coats for the subs on the bench in those below 32 degree games.
I think high school soccer is fantastic. Full disclosure: I'm a high school soccer coach in Texas. However, it cannot be the main focus for developing soccer talent in this country. There needs to more of an understanding between club soccer and high school soccer, but that is a topic for a different conversation.
If we are waiting until high school to start working with kids technically, they are far, far behind. Sure some may develop into decent players, but these are players that will never even become impact players on the high school level.
Look, we don't have enough good coaches to go around all the clubs that exist, much less placing one in each high school! Ha!
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 5:43 pm
Posted on 7/3/14 at 6:20 pm to Tiger Phil
My son played select and ODP from 2nd grade till he hit middle school.
Where development in Alabama falls apart is when they get to middle school. Most kids - at least in mid-size to small towns - can't wait to play for their school team. The AHSAA has a rule that if you are playing for your school in any sport, you can not play for an outside team in the same sport. It's a rule to keep schools from getting around the practice limit rules by having their whole soccer, baseball, basketball etc. team using a rec team or travel team to augment the school team.
So 95% of the kids drop playing for their club team to play for their school.
It makes sense for sports and athletes that use the American model of a college scholarship as the path to a pro career but it really hurts the sports that don't - soccer, golf, tennis, etc.
I think it's going to be hard to change the mindset of parents and kids - especially in smaller towns - that want to play for the local high school.
Our town is around 40,000 but we have a thriving select club organization for teams U13 and under.
It dies out completely for boys and girls when they get to 7th grade.
Our club has joined with other regional clubs to petition for a rule change for soccer and the AHSAA has turned us down 6 years in a row.
Where development in Alabama falls apart is when they get to middle school. Most kids - at least in mid-size to small towns - can't wait to play for their school team. The AHSAA has a rule that if you are playing for your school in any sport, you can not play for an outside team in the same sport. It's a rule to keep schools from getting around the practice limit rules by having their whole soccer, baseball, basketball etc. team using a rec team or travel team to augment the school team.
So 95% of the kids drop playing for their club team to play for their school.
It makes sense for sports and athletes that use the American model of a college scholarship as the path to a pro career but it really hurts the sports that don't - soccer, golf, tennis, etc.
I think it's going to be hard to change the mindset of parents and kids - especially in smaller towns - that want to play for the local high school.
Our town is around 40,000 but we have a thriving select club organization for teams U13 and under.
It dies out completely for boys and girls when they get to 7th grade.
Our club has joined with other regional clubs to petition for a rule change for soccer and the AHSAA has turned us down 6 years in a row.
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