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Message
re: When the Going Gets Tough, the Electric go Petrol
Posted on 5/25/21 at 6:35 am to shel311
Posted on 5/25/21 at 6:35 am to shel311
Of course you can “find” a charger, only a small percentage of cars use them now. What happens when the gubment says all cars have to be electric?
You will have to wait 20 minutes to use the charger for your 20 minutes. Or, if it takes 4x as long as filling with gas as stated in this thread, then you might be 4th in line and will get to spend over an hour filling up…
Electric is interesting, but we are nowhere near ready for it. Forcing the hand is ludicrous. Leave it as an option for mostly urban dwellers.
You will have to wait 20 minutes to use the charger for your 20 minutes. Or, if it takes 4x as long as filling with gas as stated in this thread, then you might be 4th in line and will get to spend over an hour filling up…
Electric is interesting, but we are nowhere near ready for it. Forcing the hand is ludicrous. Leave it as an option for mostly urban dwellers.
1
Posted on 5/25/21 at 7:09 am to Perfect Circle
quote:
Payload on the F-150 Lightning EV is considerably reduced by the heavier batteries in the “tow package.” Towing range with a moderate tow payload is in the mid double digits
Soyboys buying this would never tow anything
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:11 am to Spasweezy
quote:You're not doing a very good job of convincing why a person would forget to charge because they're drunk but not forget to get gas because they're drunk.
No, but they use their phone died excuse a lot when their alarms don’t go off. That’s a result of them forgetting to charge stuff.
You basically just made something up in your head and ran with it as a point against EVs.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:15 am to EA6B
quote:Correct on 8+ hours, if you're starting from near 0%.
However, best case for home charging to 100% with the fastest 33kw charger is dismal, requiring 8-12 hours.
But if you're home charging, you're likely charging each night, so it's highly unlikely you're driving 300+ miles per day and needing to charge from near 0 to 100% every night.
As a result, most people only charge to 80% daily anyway since for the vast majority of day to day use, that's way more charge than you'll ever need.
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 9:24 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:18 am to antibarner
quote:Nothing if it's within your 8 year warranty. If you're in a newer Tesla, probably in the $8-10k range if you really wanted to replace it after 8 years, which I'd guess is unlikely.
If something happens to that battery how much does it cost me to replace it?
quote:I doubt they'd make you take the old battery with you.
Dispose of the old one?
quote:Depends on what kind of range your battery has, impossible to answer that question without more detail on what you're trying to find out.
How often am I going to have to stop and recharge with that 80% charge?
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:20 am to Clames
quote:How do these compare to the 4680s?
Let's take Teslas 2170 cells
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:20 am to shel311
quote:
33kw
Good lord that's well over 100 amps of 220vac supply. Half the service power available in a house. Like running a giant arse welding machine on dig for 8 hours. That is a mega shitload of juice.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:22 am to concrete_tiger
quote:Why would you assume we'd be operating with the same number of charging stations as now?
Of course you can “find” a charger, only a small percentage of cars use them now. What happens when the gubment says all cars have to be electric?
quote:Again, assuming zero charging stations are added, which won't be the case, so it's an irrelevant scenario that isn't a real life comparison.
You will have to wait 20 minutes to use the charger for your 20 minutes. Or, if it takes 4x as long as filling with gas as stated in this thread, then you might be 4th in line and will get to spend over an hour filling up…
quote:Agreed
Forcing the hand is ludicrous. Leave it as an option for mostly urban dwellers.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:25 am to Wtodd
He is talking about having a quiet gas/diesel generator on board I believe to charge while moving. I would think that this is a thing. I mean on most boats u have a generator to run your lights and fridge etc.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:29 am to Perfect Circle
quote:
Shouldn’t be a problem. Nobody ever tows anything more than 100 miles.
Uh, bullshite.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 9:39 am to antibarner
quote:
No matter what, you have to charge a battery. That takes time, a LOT more than fueling an internal combustion engine OR a fuel cell.
Not really. Consider you also don't have to attend to the charger while it does it's thing. You can plug the charger in and go in to the convenience store to use the restroom and grab a snack.
The only time you'd be stopping at a public charging station is if you're on a long road trip. A typical gas stop w/restroom etc. is probably at least 20 minutes, if not it's close, and there's no reason to think that charge times will not continue to improve.
quote:
We can still get hydrogen from natural gas right now by the way, and there's plenty of that.
I'd like to see the energy balance. If you're chemically separating it, then it won't be any better than water. If it's physically separated, then that might possibly work, but again I'd like to know how scalable that is.
quote:
Batteries are and always will be nasty things, from their production to their maintenance up to their disposal. You can't change THAT either.
I wasn't aware we had reached our technological zenith.
quote:
nd no matter what if you have a bunch of electric vehicles you're going to have to generate that power somehow, and a LOT of it.
Nuclear baw. Would be easy to scale up grid capacity by adding nuclear plants...easy from an engineering and logistical perspective anyway. Politically, there are some heads that still need to be removed from their asses.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:11 am to CptRusty
quote:
I wasn't aware we had reached our technological zenith.
Exactly my point with hydrogen. You can hem and haw all you want with EV's, but IMO fuel cells are unbeatable.You say this and that can't be done with hydrogen, but OF COURSE it can with batteries. I say BS. We can't build fusion reactors today, but someday we likely will. I say we will be able to do things in the future we think are impossible today, and one of them could very well be making hydrogen fuel abundant and cheap.
It's EVERYWHERE in nature, all around us.
Plenty of power and range, and zero nasty emissions. Not to mention it recycles itself.
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 10:20 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:20 am to shel311
quote:
quote:
Of course you can “find” a charger, only a small percentage of cars use them now. What happens when the gubment says all cars have to be electric?
Why would you assume we'd be operating with the same number of charging stations as now?
quote:
You will have to wait 20 minutes to use the charger for your 20 minutes. Or, if it takes 4x as long as filling with gas as stated in this thread, then you might be 4th in line and will get to spend over an hour filling up…
Again, assuming zero charging stations are added, which won't be the case, so it's an irrelevant scenario that isn't a real life comparison.
quote:
Forcing the hand is ludicrous. Leave it as an option for mostly urban dwellers.
Agreed
If a gas station has 12 pumps, the scenario assumes 12 charger stations. You can add as many as you want, but cars take physical space in a parking lot, so you'll have to start stacking cars, I guess?
How many chargers can you have in one spot, anyway? I mean, are we building a coal plant to supply the energy needed, every 200 miles? Do you drive? Have you seen the 100 cars that rotate all day in and out every 10 minutes at a station like Buc-ees? And these cars can drive very far on a tank of gas. You'll need to triple the access to "pumps" to avoid long lines.
I can drive from here to Orlando without stopping if I like. I would have to stop twice in an electric car in real world conditions.
We keep talking about "future state," but the libs want to push us in this direction now. We don't have the infrastructure to support converting more than a small percentage. I am okay with that.
Range needs to be 400-500 miles in real world conditions, and charging needs to be as fast as ICE, and just as ubiquitous.
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 10:43 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:40 am to antibarner
quote:
ou say this and that can't be done with hydrogen
The only thing I'm saying can't be done with hydrogen is getting more energy out of it than you have to use to chemically separate it.
That's physics. Entropy. Second law of thermodynamics. There is zero chance of ever developing technology which allows you to circumvent this.
A brief google search of how hydrogen is separated from natural gas shows it's a chemical reaction, with two methods being prevalent:
Steam-methane reforming reaction
CH4 + H2O (+ heat) -> CO + 3H2
and
Water-gas shift reaction
CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2 (+ small amount of heat)
They're both chemical processes, so they're DOA from a net energy balance standpoint, but both of them also create byproducts which will piss of the climate change alarmists.
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 10:42 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:49 am to CptRusty
quote:
The only thing I'm saying can't be done with hydrogen is getting more energy out of it than you have to use to chemically separate it. That's physics. Entropy. Second law of thermodynamics. There is zero chance of ever developing technology which allows you to circumvent this. A brief google search of how hydrogen is separated from natural gas shows it's a chemical reaction, with two methods being prevalent:
100% correct, hydrogen is a “carrier” of energy, not a “source” of energy. Basic knowledge of physical science is very sparse these days.
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:52 am to EA6B
Have we considered the possibility of making all roads go downhill?
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:58 am to EA6B
Uh huh. Right. I don't care what it is, carrier or source, IF we can make it economically feasible.
Let's face it, a battery only gives you what you put into it, no more no less. It is, simply a carrier if you want to get technical about it and NOT a source, which would be the power plant. A battery is useless without a charge.
Let's face it, a battery only gives you what you put into it, no more no less. It is, simply a carrier if you want to get technical about it and NOT a source, which would be the power plant. A battery is useless without a charge.
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 11:03 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 10:59 am to Lsutigerturner
quote:
He is talking about having a quiet gas/diesel generator on board I believe to charge while moving. I would think that this is a thing. I mean on most boats u have a generator to run your lights and fridge etc.
As another poster elegantly described this would be like trying to fill a barrel with a 1/4 inch hose while it is draining through a 2 inch pipe. The energy required to transport the weight of the generator and fuel in the car would also have to be replaced by the generator. No way around the law of Conservation of Energy
Posted on 5/25/21 at 11:01 am to antibarner
quote:
IF we can make it economically feasible.
Unless you find a source of abundant, easily accessible, free hydrogen- by which I mean it is not chemically bonded to something else, ie pure H2 - then you can't. Period.
Here, this might help:
Second Law of Thermo explained
This post was edited on 5/25/21 at 11:03 am
Posted on 5/25/21 at 11:02 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:I have no idea the technical component and stuff you're talking about, but I can say it's definitely nothing like that.
Good lord that's well over 100 amps of 220vac supply. Half the service power available in a house. Like running a giant arse welding machine on dig for 8 hours. That is a mega shitload of juice.
Unless you're driving wayyyyy more miles than average, charging from home adds about $20/month to your electric bill.
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