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re: When a lesbian comes out of the closet; not what you're thinking tho
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:00 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:00 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:Extortion? You really need to learn something about Christian theology before you attempt to attack it.
So your religion is based on extortion. frick that.
No, it's not extortion. Everyone is already guilty and deserves the (eternal) death penalty. No one who ever goes to Hell goes there unjustly. God, as king over His creations, has the authority to pardon sins as long as justice is still accomplished. The Father sent Jesus to die though He didn't deserve it as the sacrifice for sin that satisfies God's justice for those who receive that pardon through faith.
quote:I don't care what the Pope says. Do you think everyone looks to the Pope for spiritual guidance? No, some of us actually look to the word of God alone for our rule of faith and life.
God CLEARLY says to rest on the "Seventh Day", which is Saturday. Any other goobledygook is going against the DIRECT word of God as handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai. Who said they could change which day the Sabbath was on, the Pope?
Yeah, I thought so.
And with that, Christians look to the scriptures to understand what has changed (if anything) with observance of the sabbath day. The sabbath is the sabbath of the Lord, or "the Lord's day", which is how Christians still refer to Sundays. Since Christ is Lord and He rose from the grave on Sunday, Christians under the oversight and authority of the apostles who were directed by God began meeting on Sundays rather than Saturdays for their sabbath worship.
Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 follow the pattern of the Church meeting on the first day of the week (as the Jews met on the last day of the week). The pattern was established based on Apostolic authority to remember the Lord's Day (Christ's day) by which Christians are saved through Christ as the Jewish sabbath was to commemorate the salvation of the people from Egypt. It was also to commemorate the rest we have in Christ as the Jewish sabbath was to commemorate the rest found in God from creation. Christ as Lord ultimately changed "the Lord's Day" to remember Himself.
This is further evidenced by the unanimous and immediate adoption of Sunday as the Christian sabbath in the first and second centuries, even among Jewish congregations who tended to retain Jewish traditions, sabbaths, holy days, etc. which Paul had to correct.
quote:Again, Christians are sinners, too, and in need of forgiveness for their sins just as much as those who do not profess faith in Christ. The truth about the gospel is not made false simply because the followers of Christ are inconsistent in how they live their lives in relation to the standard that God has provided. It seems as though you're simply looking for further excuses not to submit to Christ.
Except for those which Christians CLEARLY ignore, like images of God, names above God, keeping the Sabbath holy (I'll give you loving your neighbor, that's a toughie). That just screams of hypocrisy, and going directly against the word of God. I want no part of that.
quote:What do you think Christ meant when He said He came to fulfill the law?
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Amen
Jesus obeyed every aspect of the law perfectly, which is why He was not deserving of the suffering and death He underwent on our behalf. Because He obeyed the law perfectly, when we trust in His sacrifice to pardon us for our sins, we are receiving His righteousness earned by keeping the law. In this regard, the law has not passed away. The question is how we are counted as righteous before God: are we righteous for our perfect obedience to the law or Christ's perfect obedience to it?
quote:I know why you say that. You're trying to turn the tables and have me say something to the effect of "I don't believe that so it won't happen", so you can respond with "well I don't believe in sin so therefore I'm not guilty of sinning".
And you are going to suffer an eternity in Hell, whether you believe it or not.
I'll cut to the chase: if you believed I was going to to Hell (I doubt you actually do sense this seems more like a rhetorical trap than an actual conviction of yours), what is your basis for saying so?
quote:According to which standard?
That's not good enough, you must cover all the sinning you're unaware of.
quote:Clearly you don't understand the seriousness of what He went through.
It wasn't much of a sacrifice, what with the whole Resurrection and all. What'd he get, like 3 days LWOP? Psssh.
1
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:05 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Honestly, any being that would condemn, for ETERNTY, a human to fire and damnation, is an entity that is 100% shitty in every way imaginable.
Do you know what living without God's grace for eternity entails? God's grace is what subdues God's just wrath. Hell is receiving the wrath of God for eternity.
More like an Ant Farm owner than a perfect being.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:11 pm to ShortyRob
quote:You say that because you don't understand the sinfulness of man, the holiness of God, or both.
Honestly, any being that would condemn, for ETERNTY, a human to fire and damnation, is an entity that is 100% shitty in every way imaginable.
More like an Ant Farm owner than a perfect being.
But that said, how can anyone justify such a claim of God being immoral for what He does if God doesn't first exist? Such condemnation would be nothing more than a personal opinion not worth anything at all.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:17 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You say that because you don't understand the sinfulness of man, the holiness of God, or both.
Nope
I say it because eternal damnation for pretty much any normal living human who isn't a felon(convicted or not) is asinine and the behavior of a truly piece of shite being that is honestly, pretty much the personification of evil.
quote:The default state doesn't have to be good. The default state can be evil.
But that said, how can anyone justify such a claim of God being immoral for what He does if God doesn't first exist? Such condemnation would be nothing more than a personal opinion not worth anything at all.
An evil God would beget an evil universe.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 5:55 pm to ShortyRob
quote:I'd say this response proves my point: you don't really understand the holiness of God or the sinfulness of man.
Nope
I say it because eternal damnation for pretty much any normal living human who isn't a felon(convicted or not) is asinine and the behavior of a truly piece of shite being that is honestly, pretty much the personification of evil.
You seem to think that a sin against God is equivalent to a sin against another human being. Just like a sin against another human wouldn't warrant an eternity of punishment, you think that so too a sin against God wouldn't warrant an eternity of punishment.
God is infinitely holy and a sin against God requires an infinite punishment. It's why only God, Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ could be an acceptable sacrifice to take away the offense of our sins.
quote:Without God, there would be no objective standard or measure of good or evil. How then can you even judge God as good or evil in your worldview in any meaningful way?
The default state doesn't have to be good. The default state can be evil.
An evil God would beget an evil universe.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 7:56 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Without God, there would be no objective standard or measure of good or evil
That's fine. I didn't say anything about "without God".
You have the ability, right?
Cool. That ability doesn't actually require God be good. If God her evil, you'd still retain the ability.
quote:So, to be clear. You don't know if God is good? OK. Cool. Then, it's just as likely that he's evil. Thanks for playing. That was easy.
How then can you even judge God
Posted on 2/27/20 at 7:58 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Or, he's infinitely evil, and an affront against him results in punishment just like an affront against Hitler might have resulted in the same. You already said you don't know if he's good or evil, so, you can't even attempt to refute that possibility. Which, of course, I thank you for.
God is infinitely holy and a sin against God requires an infinite punishment.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 8:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:By the way, you're confusing two issues.
But that said, how can anyone justify such a claim of God being immoral for what He does if God doesn't first exist?
We aren't discussing whether he exists. If he exists as you say. And, he's the reason we can assess good and bad, then, there is no actual necessity that he be good.
We could just as easily derive our ability to assess good and evil if God is by default evil. There's no logical construct that says his existence confers an ability upon us to assess good/bad but that the ONLY possible state for God is "good". It works EXACTLY as well if he's on the opposite end of the moral spectrum.
Oh, and if he is, we can't assume he never lies either. Just sayin.....
Posted on 2/27/20 at 8:05 pm to ShortyRob
Now I remember why anyone who brought religion into discussion on the Poliboard used to get banned.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 8:08 pm to LSUGrrrl
quote:
Now I remember why anyone who brought religion into discussion on the Poliboard used to get banned.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 8:58 pm to Flats
quote:
I’m not talking about a child, I’m talking about a post-adolescent teen. You’re using “social factors” as a way to disguise “moral norms”, but it’s a weak disguise. It all boils down to personal values and what those are for the majority of a culture. If you want laws, you want some level of your personal values enforced. That’s a fact.
Moving the goal post and a strawman all in one post.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:31 pm to ShortyRob
I'll respond to all three posts in this one.
I don't believe God could be evil. God is great and worthy of praise (Psalm 145:3). In order to be God, He must be great, and moral perfection is part of what it means for God to be great and worthy of worship and praise. His very actions show this, as He condescended to become a human and suffer and die through His son Jesus so that a people who hate Him and spit in His figurative face could be saved.
We know what good and evil are only because God has made us aware of what they are by the revelation of His own character through His moral law. We know that murder is objectively wrong because God has commanded us not to take the lives of His image-bearers without just cause. God provides the basis for an objective moral standard and His character prevents that standard from being a standard of evil that we should follow instead of a standard of goodness.
If He didn't exist, we couldn't have a justification for the existence of immaterial laws of logic and therefore we couldn't make sense of causal relationships. If God were not morally perfect, He would be able to lie, and therefore we wouldn't be able to trust anything we experience (everything could be an illusion set up to trick us) and we couldn't know what was morally good because God could lie to us about what was good or bad or change His mind about it or simply tell us that which is good is bad and vice versa.
quote:Ability for what or to do what?
That's fine. I didn't say anything about "without God".
You have the ability, right?
Cool. That ability doesn't actually require God be good. If God her evil, you'd still retain the ability.
quote:I do know that God is good. I have a revelational epistemology that allows me to know that. We've gone over this previously.
So, to be clear. You don't know if God is good? OK. Cool. Then, it's just as likely that he's evil. Thanks for playing. That was easy.
quote:He's not infinitely evil so the conjecture is moot. Even God's goodness aligns with our conception of good. The confusion always comes in when we try to think of God as a human being with equal authority as ourselves.
Or, he's infinitely evil, and an affront against him results in punishment just like an affront against Hitler might have resulted in the same.
quote:Please show me where I said that I don't know if He's good or evil. That really doesn't sound familiar to me.
You already said you don't know if he's good or evil, so, you can't even attempt to refute that possibility. Which, of course, I thank you for.
I don't believe God could be evil. God is great and worthy of praise (Psalm 145:3). In order to be God, He must be great, and moral perfection is part of what it means for God to be great and worthy of worship and praise. His very actions show this, as He condescended to become a human and suffer and die through His son Jesus so that a people who hate Him and spit in His figurative face could be saved.
We know what good and evil are only because God has made us aware of what they are by the revelation of His own character through His moral law. We know that murder is objectively wrong because God has commanded us not to take the lives of His image-bearers without just cause. God provides the basis for an objective moral standard and His character prevents that standard from being a standard of evil that we should follow instead of a standard of goodness.
quote:The necessity of His goodness is derived from who He is. We aren't talking about some hypothetical God, at least I'm not. I'm talking about the only possible God that allows humanity to know anything about the universe. If God did not exist, we couldn't justify knowledge of anything because we couldn't trust the world to be uniform in nature and therefore we couldn't trust our experiences.
By the way, you're confusing two issues.
We aren't discussing whether he exists. If he exists as you say. And, he's the reason we can assess good and bad, then, there is no actual necessity that he be good.
If He didn't exist, we couldn't have a justification for the existence of immaterial laws of logic and therefore we couldn't make sense of causal relationships. If God were not morally perfect, He would be able to lie, and therefore we wouldn't be able to trust anything we experience (everything could be an illusion set up to trick us) and we couldn't know what was morally good because God could lie to us about what was good or bad or change His mind about it or simply tell us that which is good is bad and vice versa.
quote:See above. If God were evil, we would have no justification to claim to know anything at all. Only the Biblical God (with His moral perfection) provides the preconditions of intelligibility which we have discussed ad nauseum.
We could just as easily derive our ability to assess good and evil if God is by default evil. There's no logical construct that says his existence confers an ability upon us to assess good/bad but that the ONLY possible state for God is "good". It works EXACTLY as well if he's on the opposite end of the moral spectrum.
Oh, and if he is, we can't assume he never lies either. Just sayin.....
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:37 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
don't believe God could be evil.
Child cancer is evil.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:41 pm to beerJeep
quote:Explain to me why you think cancer (in children or otherwise) is evil and please provide me the moral standard you are using to make such a judgement.
Child cancer is evil.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:44 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Explain to me why you think cancer (in children or otherwise) is evil and please provide me the moral standard you are using to make such a judgement.
Any god that punishes an innocent child with a terminal disease is evil.
Oh. And you’re still going to multiple forms of hell just so ya know.
Jew hell. Islam hell. Buddha hell. Taoist hell. Flat earth hell. Etc.
This post was edited on 2/27/20 at 9:46 pm
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:52 pm to beerJeep
quote:Why? And what standard are you using to make that judgement?
Any god that punishes an innocent child with a terminal disease is evil.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 9:54 pm to Oilfieldbiology
quote:
Conservatives, in general, are. What most of us will never accept is that transsexuals are not mentally it but rather brave, heroic individuals. That’s it. LGBTQ and whatever else they are really screwed the pooch by letting trannys widen that tent
I agree with you. But it is unfortunate that conservatives poisoned the well with so many people by opposing regular gays. The conservatives let the Bible thumpers have too much control rather than being more socially libertarian.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 10:09 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Why?
What kind of holy god would put such suffering on an innocent child?
If I walk up to a child and kill it, am i evil?
quote:
And what standard are you using to make that judgement?
The standard that doesn’t give different entities different rules.
If it’s evil for me to inflict suffering upon an innocent child, it is evil for god to inflict suffering upon an innocent child.
Posted on 2/27/20 at 10:15 pm to beerJeep
quote:Who says anyone is innocent in God's eyes?
What kind of holy god would put such suffering on an innocent child?
But that's beside the point. Why do you think it's evil?
quote:I think if you did that, you would be committing an evil act, but I also have an objective standard by which to condemn such an act as evil.
If I walk up to a child and kill it, am i evil?
quote:Which standard is that and where did it come from? Did you make it up?
The standard that doesn’t give different entities different rules.
quote:Says who?
If it’s evil for me to inflict suffering upon an innocent child, it is evil for god to inflict suffering upon an innocent child.
And why do you think the creator of the universe (and of those very children) can't move people from this life to the next any time He so chooses? Does He not have the authority to do so? And why is this creator on equal footing with His creation in every aspect in your view?
Posted on 2/27/20 at 10:19 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Who says anyone is innocent in God's eyes?
But that's beside the point. Why do you think it's evil?
I already said. Use your eyes. Read. Then use your brain to comprehend what you read.
quote:
And why do you think the creator of the universe
The Big Bang created the universe.
quote:
and of those very children
Evolution created children.
quote:
can't move people from this life to the next any time He so chooses?
No such thing. When you die, you die. That’s it dude.
You can make believe and believe what you want. Idgaf. But at the end of the day, when you die, you will experience the exact same thing you did before you were born.
Absolutely nothing.
Oh. And have fun in all the other hells you will burn in.
This post was edited on 2/27/20 at 10:21 pm
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