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re: When a lesbian comes out of the closet; not what you're thinking tho
Posted on 2/29/20 at 11:24 am to WildTchoupitoulas
Posted on 2/29/20 at 11:24 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:I was referring to your usage of the word "extortion" in regards to what God does by meting out earned punishment vs. pardoning sin.
I don't mean to be dishonest, but if you would point pout where I was, I will consider my ways
quote:No, extortion is a threat of a criminal act if the victim doesn't acquiesce to certain demands. God isn't threatening anything at all. We all deserve Hell for our sins already. God just comes in after we have sinned and says that He'll give us a pardon if we trust in Him to forgive our debts.
You still don't understand what extortion is.
Extortion: the practice of obtaining something...through force or threats.
If I don't accept Jesus, I will be condemned to God's wrath. That is God trying to obtain something (acceptance of Jesus) through threat of force (suffering God's wrath). It couldn't be more clear.
You're essentially comparing God to a mob boss instead of a king who has the right to pardon law-breakers who have already earned their sentence. It's why I'm saying you're being dishonest, but perhaps I was wrong about that. You might legitimately not understand the difference, so I apologize if I've wrongfully accused you in this case.
quote:Yep, you don't understand the difference (from the previous response in this post), so the apology stands.
That's gibberish in order to rationalize your belief to yourself.
quote:It's better to think about God being thought itself and that our thoughts should be modeled after Him. God is perfectly logical and intelligent and we should be logical and seek to align our thoughts after God's in regards to His knowledge of truth. My point is that we aren't exactly like God, emotionally or intelligently.
Again, here's where you sell your God short. God is beyond space and time (I don't think you understand the ramifications of that), not only does thinking take time, but it presupposes that you don't have 'knowledge' before you have to think. Thinking implies you're having to figure something out. When you are beyond space-time, everything happens simultaneously. You would already 'know' the outcome of your thoughts before you had to think them.
quote:What does it mean that God cannot change (His immutability)? It means that God by His very nature is perfect in every way and cannot improve or degrade. When the Son was incarnate as a human being, He remained His perfect divine nature as God in addition to taking on a separate human nature. We talk of Jesus being fully God and fully man, not half and half or sharing one nature. Jesus retained His perfect divine nature and thus in that sense nothing was added or subtracted to that nature.
And yet I've been told by many Christians that God changed with the birth of His Son. But I too believe God doesn't change because he is beyond time.
quote:"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." -Romans 5:9-11
No we're not, you're being awfully presumptuous.
quote:I don't have to have a near-death experience to know that no one can empathize fully with what Jesus went through. While Jesus is like us in His humanity, He is not like us in His divinity and His perfect fellowship with the Father. There's no way we could understand what He went through in every sense on the cross.
Again, more presumption. You OBVIOUSLY have not had a real near death experience - MUCH LESS your presumption that you have any idea of what Jesus was going through on the cross when he cried out of rwhy God had forsaken him.
quote:I have said multiple times that I have a revelational epistemology, meaning I can know things because God makes that possible. If the biblical God didn't exist as the Bible (His revealed word and truth) proclaims, then we wouldn't be able to know anything for certain. The tagline is this: the proof of God's existence is that without Him, we couldn't prove anything.
You speak as someone who has knowledge instead of someone who has faith. You have no actual knowledge of what you speak, it's all speculation. Furthermore, your characterization of God is terribly petty, vain and vengeful. Your version of God is really not that far removed from Zeus at all. Our knowledge of God's creation has expanded exponentially since the time of Jesus, but the Christian God has not kept pace with our understanding of his creation.
Your own view of the biblical God is clouded by your misunderstanding of how God could be different from humans. You don't even recognize how His authority is greater than that of humans allowing Him to punish sin without being sinful. God is not like Zeus or Allah or any other proposed deity in other religions. He is perfect and lacks those passions (emotions, as we experience them) that cause Him to change like those other gods have.
In regards to your statement about knowledge of creation: there would be no justification for knowledge at all without the biblical God. On top of that, our understanding of the universe is simply an understanding of God's power as exercised in the upholding of the universe. When we gain knowledge about the natural world, we are learning about How God is working. On top of that, facts are not brute; they must be interpreted in light of one's worldview. A creationist has the same facts and evidence as an evolutionist both they interpret the evidence differently. The creationist will use biblical presuppositions and the evolutionist will use naturalistic and materialistic presuppositions. Because of this, the conclusions may be very different from one another on certain things.
1
Posted on 3/1/20 at 7:08 am to FooManChoo
quote:
We all deserve Hell for our sins already.
No WE don't you should speak for yourself.
God could say that if you accept Him, you will live for eternity in God's grace. If you don't accept him, you get nothing, no Hell, no Grace, your soul just dissipates. But that's not what He's saying, He's saying that if you don't love Him, you will suffer. The incentive is therefore to avoid suffering, so you love Him. Being coerced to action to avoid the painful consequences of not taking that action, in fact, extortion. It would be more pure if there were only reward with no risk of pain.
quote:
You're essentially comparing God to a mob boss instead of a king who has the right to pardon law-breakers who have already earned their sentence.
My point is that YOU'RE the one making God to be less than He is. The mob boss comparison is simply based on YOUR premises.
It's proven here:
quote:
God is perfectly logical and intelligent
Intelligence is a trait of biological organisms who are constrained by space-time. The Creator of the universe is beyond time and space, therefore it experiences everything simultaneously. There is no need for "intelligence". As soon as you start to give God human characteristics, you degrade His nature.
quote:
What does it mean that God cannot change (His immutability)? It means that God by His very nature is perfect in every way and cannot improve or degrade.
No, that's NOT what it means. It means that since God is beyond time, and change IS time, God is also beyond change. God experiences all time simultaneously, we biological beings must suffer through moving through time in a linear fashion. You really don't seem to have a grasp of what it must be like to be beyond time.
quote:
shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Wrath is a human emotion, God is not human, therefore God is not wrathful.
quote:
I have said multiple times that I have a revelational epistemology, meaning I can know things because God makes that possible. If the biblical God didn't exist as the Bible (His revealed word and truth) proclaims, then we wouldn't be able to know anything for certain. The tagline is this: the proof of God's existence is that without Him, we couldn't prove anything.
I've got bad news for you, we are imperfect beings, we really can't know anything for certain, we can only play the percentages.
quote:
Your own view of the biblical God is clouded by your misunderstanding of how God could be different from humans.
I propose that it's your understanding of the Biblical God that is what is clouding your understanding as to the true nature of God. You've been led to believe that God is particularly concerned with humans. He is not. We are but a miniscule result of His creation, God is unconcerned.
quote:
God is not like Zeus or Allah or any other proposed deity in other religions.
God IS Zeus, and Allah and Vishnu, and all the other names of God. These names are used by men to describe the nature of God. It is through all of the revelations of all men through all time that we try to understand God's nature. As we gain a better understanding of the Creation, we gain a better understanding of the nature of God.
quote:
He is perfect and lacks those passions (emotions, as we experience them) that cause Him to change like those other gods have.
This is in direct contradiction to your belief, sorry, your 'knowledge' through epistemological revelation, that God is wrathful. But I find it interesting that you refer to "Gods" in the plural form.
quote:
our understanding of the universe is simply an understanding of God's power as exercised in the upholding of the universe. When we gain knowledge about the natural world, we are learning about How God is working.
I agree.
quote:
The creationist will use biblical presuppositions and the evolutionist will use naturalistic and materialistic presuppositions. Because of this, the conclusions may be very different from one another on certain things.
Yes, and the creationist, relying on biblical revelation for understanding of how the universe works, has been proven wrong time after time. The Earth, and therefore humans, are NOT at the center of the universe - except insofar as our own perspective puts us there. Therefore, when we explore the nature of our own biological development, I'm inclined to go with the evolutionary model of how God works. The Christian church fought heliocentrism just like they're fighting evolution now - through their interpretation of biblical revelation. They were wrong then, I believe they're wrong now.
Posted on 3/2/20 at 1:33 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:Yes, we all deserve Hell for our sins already, as God has already revealed. That's the entire point, and why it's not extortion for God to offer salvation through faith in Christ while not allowing it without that faith.
No WE don't you should speak for yourself.
God could say that if you accept Him, you will live for eternity in God's grace. If you don't accept him, you get nothing, no Hell, no Grace, your soul just dissipates. But that's not what He's saying, He's saying that if you don't love Him, you will suffer. The incentive is therefore to avoid suffering, so you love Him. Being coerced to action to avoid the painful consequences of not taking that action, in fact, extortion. It would be more pure if there were only reward with no risk of pain.
We are all sinners because our representative broke God's law and because we break the law, ourselves. When we break the law, we deserve justice. God is a just God and cannot let law-breaking go unpunished. God can't simply let it go and let us fade into eternity. It's why Jesus had to die in order to satisfy God's justice on our behalf if we trust in Him by faith.
quote:I'm not making God less than He is. I'm explaining to you who God has revealed Himself to be. God is intelligent. He's the most intelligent thing in existence and He'd have to be to create the universe as it is.
My point is that YOU'RE the one making God to be less than He is. The mob boss comparison is simply based on YOUR premises.
It's prove here:
...
Intelligence is a trait of biological organisms who are constrained by space-time. The Creator of the universe is beyond time and space, therefore it experiences everything simultaneously. There is no need for "intelligence". As soon as you start to give God human characteristics, you degrade His nature.
I think you're getting hung up on your thought that intelligence is limited to biological creatures. God has a mind that isn't biological or physical. You think I'm making God to be less than He is by talking about Him in terms that you understand to only apply to biological creatures. I'm saying that the Bible teaches that those terms or characteristics don't just apply to biological creatures. In fact, I'm saying that God made humans in His own image with certain traits that reflect the same traits that God possesses. I'm not giving God human characteristics. I'm explaining that God has characteristics that He's endowed to His creation.
quote:It is what God's immutability means. It's a character trait that has been understood for a few thousand years. You're attempting to redefine it in terms of what you think God must be like based on your own understanding of the physical universe.
No, that's NOT what it means. It means that since God is beyond time, and change IS time, God is also beyond change. God experiences all time simultaneously, we biological beings must suffer through moving through time in a linear fashion. You really don't seem to have a grasp of what it must be like to be beyond time.
God does interact with His creation, which means while He is outside of time, He has to act within it in order to communicate with us.
quote:Again, I don't think you understand that God made humans after His image: what you view as strictly human isn't, at least not in totality. God has emotions but He doesn't experience them like we do. He doesn't change because of them or react to them because that would mean He changes and therefore wouldn't be immutable. God has a disposition towards things which we regard as emotion. He's got a disposition towards sin that we call hatred or wrath, and when He acts against sin He is said to do so by His wrath.
Wrath is a human emotion, God is not human, therefore God is not wrathful.
quote:Your worldview appears to rely on an empirical epistemology. Such an epistemology is self-defeating because we can't even say we know all things through observation because we haven't observed all things. You're right to limit that way of knowing things to our limitations as humans, but that isn't the same with God.
I've got bad news for you, we are imperfect beings, we really can't know anything for certain, we can only play the percentages.
A revelational epistemology means that we can know things through the revelation of God who knows all things and cannot lie.
quote:To understand God above His existence and power you have to have revelation from God. I've got the Bible and 2,000 years of theological study to help guide my understanding. You seem to be applying your own best guesses to God based on what you think ought to be true from an observational standpoint.
I propose that it's your understanding of the Biblical God that is what is clouding your understanding as to the true nature of God. You've been led to believe that God is particularly concerned with humans. He is not. We are but a miniscule result of His creation, God is unconcerned.
And yes, God does care about us. He sent His son to become one of us and die so that we can be saved from our sins.
quote:Impossible. Those "revelations" are contradictory. They all can be wrong or one can be right but they all can't logically be right.
God IS Zeus, and Allah and Vishnu, and all the other names of God. These names are used by men to describe the nature of God. It is through all of the revelations of all men through all time that we try to understand God's nature. As we gain a better understanding of the Creation, we gain a better understanding of the nature of God.
The God of the Bible alone provides a basis for understanding the reality we observe.
quote:It's not a contradiction. You don't understand the position of the Christian Church that has understood this topic for 2,000 years. What I'm saying isn't novel.
This is in direct contradiction to your belief, sorry, your 'knowledge' through epistemological revelation, that God is wrathful. But I find it interesting that you refer to "Gods" in the plural form.
Like I said previously, God's wrath is a disposition towards sin. God doesn't experience emotion exactly the same way we do. Emotions causes a reaction from us and God doesn't react to things (even emotion) as we do.
People worship of gods. I was using the word in a way that is familiar to others.
quote:Evolutionary scientists who rely on a naturalistic and materialistic view of the universe have been proven wrong time and time again. You would embrace that, because you believe that being wrong actually gets you closer to the truth. I agree with that in terms of understanding the world that God created, but we're discussing the 'how', not the 'what' or the 'why'.
Yes, and the creationist, relying on biblical revelation for understanding of how the universe works, has been proven wrong time after time. The Earth, and therefore humans, are NOT at the center of the universe - except insofar as our own perspective puts us there. Therefore, when we explore the nature of our own biological development, I'm inclined to go with the evolutionary model of how God works. The Christian church fought heliocentrism just like they're fighting evolution now - through their interpretation of biblical revelation. They were wrong then, I believe they're wrong now.
Just because some in the past have held to a biblical worldview and denied reality of the natural world doesn't prove your case. Many of the fathers of science were Bible believing Christians. I'm talking about a worldview or presuppositions that color how we interpret evidence and an evolutionary worldview based on materialism can't account for the knowledge claims we have, which is the point I've been making all along.
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