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re: What is your definition of socialism? And why or why not is it an effective system?
Posted on 1/17/21 at 7:06 am to PacMan01
Posted on 1/17/21 at 7:06 am to PacMan01
quote:
What if the American dream was centered around doing your part in society instead of personal gain? Could that work?
Absolutely, If by “doing your part” means getting a job and not collecting a government check.
Absolutely not, if by “doing your pat” you mean a smaller and smaller minority continue to fund the government checks of a growing class of government dependents.
Read the article I posted about Denmark. They have a less regulated market economy than we do but they experimented with high taxes to fund socialist programs in health and education. Most of these nations are realizing it’s not sustainable and are rejecting these government programs.
If Denmark, a nation with the population of Houston where every is homogenous can’t figure out how to run government healthcare how the hell are we going to do it in this massive mixing pot of a nation?
0
Posted on 1/17/21 at 7:17 am to PacMan01
quote:
What I’m saying is I don’t think the top 5% should even have to pay 60% of the bill. If the bottom 90 percent of families hold less than one-quarter of all wealth, its no wonder tax rates are so progressive.
I don’t know what you are trying to say here.
Wealth and taxes are two different things. It sounds like you are more of a proponent of redistributing wealth which is money that has been accumulated AFTER someone pays their share of taxes. If you make taxes so progressive that no one can accumulate wealth then there is no incentive to innovate or produce. The more you make the more they take to the point that you can never accumulate anything.
quote:
That said, I think the glaring wealth inequality is the much larger issue and progressive taxes is like putting a lousy bandaid on it.
You’ve been conditioned to think that wealth inequality is bad. Every system with a hierarchy will produce extremes at the tail ends.
Look at sports for example. I would bet that less than 1% of all professional golfers that ever existed hold 99% of all the major titles. That’s pure individual competition and it produces massive disparity at the tail ends.
Another problem you have is perspective. A 30k dollar salary is top 1% on a global scale. So should we go a step further and redistribute that wealth to the rest of the world? Or is it ok to have disparities with Mexico right next door? If it’s ok, why?
Posted on 1/17/21 at 7:21 am to redeye
quote:
They'll complain about the wealthy, swamp and deep state all day, but then enable them by defending their low tax rate.
You think a low tax rate is responsible for the deep state and the swamp?
On paper Joe Biden probably makes 200k. The problem isn’t what he makes on paper.
Low tax rate? How is it low? The wealthy in this country pay a higher percentage of the bill than in Denmark. I’ve already posted the graphs. The bottom 50% don’t pay anything and most at subsidized.
So what you are saying is “we don’t pay anything but you should keep paying more”. At least I. Denmark everyone is contributing.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 8:10 am to Perfect Circle
Exactly!
The collective does their bidding, but in the end Socialism’s leadership stay wealthy at the expense of the collective.
The collective does their bidding, but in the end Socialism’s leadership stay wealthy at the expense of the collective.
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 8:11 am
Posted on 1/17/21 at 10:38 am to PacMan01
quote:
Why is that important? Is a person’s knowledge always valued by their net worth?
I asked you what your net worth is so I can determine how much skin you have in this socialism game you want us all to participate in. To make it easy to understand let's say your net worth was $10 million and the D.C. Socialist committee decided the max net worth any one person can attain is $2.5 million, any amount over $2.5 million is redistributed to the "people". With that being said, how many wealthy Dim Marxist Elites who are pushing this socialism BS would give up their substantial wealth to the socialist utopian cause? Ill help ya out here....probably zero!
Does this help you better understand the socialist crap the Dim Marxists are pushing isn't going to impact their wealth because they will find ways to hide and shelter their wealth/assets, however, the middle and upper middle class will be the ones expected to fund their socialist utopia.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 10:46 am to PacMan01
Had the opportunity to visit Cuba for a week a few years ago. Go hang out there for a while and you’ll no longer support socialism, unless you’re a deranged individual. Chances are, your indifference to or support of socialism is born of your own ignorance.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 10:55 am to PacMan01
quote:
But could there be other reasons behind the drive to innovate besides profit? If everyone’s basic needs are met, can the task itself be worthy and fulfilling? What if the American dream was centered around doing your part in society instead of personal gain? Could that work?
The very first reply in this thread - mine - addresses this.
You have made it abundantly clear that you don’t understand incentives, or you simply refuse to admit what you know to be true. No magical fairy dust pie in the sky notion of “the greater good” will ever make me care about your needs above my own or those of my family. It really is that simple.
“Wouldn’t it be nice if the good of society was sufficient motivation to drive innovation and risk?”
Maybe, but it’s completely irrelevant. It never will be. Ever. It’s a total non starter. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you can stop being so confused as to why people reject socialism.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 12:07 pm to PacMan01
quote:
I mostly agree with 2/3. But one of the tenets of socialism is the “workers own the means of production” not the government, no?
Ok....but who controls the distribution of that production?
And once they have control....why do they need to distribute goods and wealth fairly?
Posted on 1/17/21 at 12:55 pm to OleWar
quote:
end up creating a hierarchal system
This hits the socialism nail on the head. I believe the pure socialist argument for more collective ownership of private property is worth debate. The problem with collective ownership in an economy is how and who makes decisions on what to do with property that is owned collectively.
Some socialists would argue decisions should be made democratically. However, who frames the questions that the collective must decide democratically? A democracy can decide but cannot create the decision. The decisions are created by leadership and leadership will serve the interest of leadership. Hierarchies are unavoidable regardless of who owns property.
The fundamental problem with socialism is communism. Communism is a parasitic ideology that only appeals to the likes of over-educated narcissists. Communists embed themselves in political socialist movements and like every successful parasite eventually takes over the host party.
Communists usually rise to positions of leadership in political socialism and this is by design. Everyone should read the "Communist Manifesto" to understand parasitic and insidious nature of communism.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 1:06 pm to NashvilleTider
That’s why they created the Federal Reserve, “just print more they said” and let’s call it a very cool name “Quantitative Easing”, yeah that sounds good. Socialism is made to push society into debt and bondage. For every $1 we deposit into a FedBank, they loan out $9 and charge interest on $8 of fiat money that isn’t backed up by anything other than USA citizen guaranty to pay it back, all along devaluing our personal assets without most of the sheep even knowing. What other country in the world prints money and sends it overseas?
Ask yourself that question!!!!!! $30TRILLION in Debt, but actually way more than that, but then it gets even more complicated to explain to simpleton sheep
Ask yourself that question!!!!!! $30TRILLION in Debt, but actually way more than that, but then it gets even more complicated to explain to simpleton sheep
Posted on 1/17/21 at 1:10 pm to Westbank111
Posted on 1/17/21 at 1:11 pm to Westbank111
(no message)
Posted on 1/17/21 at 1:11 pm to Westbank111
Posted on 1/17/21 at 1:38 pm to PacMan01
An old friend and former boss spent a good bit of time in Russia just prior to the USSR's collapse and Yeltsin coming to power. He came back with some of their favorite sayings.
One of Soviet workers favorite quips: "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."
On the management side they'd say: "If you want small nails, set the quota by the count. If you want large nails, set the quota by the weight."
Any time Russians saw a long line, they would get in it even not knowing what was at the other end because they knew it was something they needed.
President Reagan's Joke:
Buying a car in the Soviet Union is not quite so easy as buying a car in the United States. There's a terrible automobile shortage so you have to pay the money up front and then wait, sometimes many years, until a car is made available to you.
On one occasion, at the height of the shortage, a man went down to his local dealership to buy a car. After he had accepted the man's money and the paperwork had been signed, the dealer informed the man that his car would be ready in 10 years and that he could come back then and pick it up.
Taking note of the date, the man turned to leave but paused on his way out the door and asked, "morning or afternoon?"
"It's 10 years from now, what difference does it make?" replied the dealer.
"Well, I'm busy in the morning." said the man.
Confused, the dealer asked, "what could you possibly have planned for the morning ten years from today?"
"The plumber's coming to fix my sink," replied the man.
One of Soviet workers favorite quips: "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."
On the management side they'd say: "If you want small nails, set the quota by the count. If you want large nails, set the quota by the weight."
Any time Russians saw a long line, they would get in it even not knowing what was at the other end because they knew it was something they needed.
President Reagan's Joke:
Buying a car in the Soviet Union is not quite so easy as buying a car in the United States. There's a terrible automobile shortage so you have to pay the money up front and then wait, sometimes many years, until a car is made available to you.
On one occasion, at the height of the shortage, a man went down to his local dealership to buy a car. After he had accepted the man's money and the paperwork had been signed, the dealer informed the man that his car would be ready in 10 years and that he could come back then and pick it up.
Taking note of the date, the man turned to leave but paused on his way out the door and asked, "morning or afternoon?"
"It's 10 years from now, what difference does it make?" replied the dealer.
"Well, I'm busy in the morning." said the man.
Confused, the dealer asked, "what could you possibly have planned for the morning ten years from today?"
"The plumber's coming to fix my sink," replied the man.
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 2:09 pm to redeye
quote:
quote:
Those countries just take more of your income and decide how much and how you should get back.
The last time I checked, that was called taxation. No?
You can have just taxation or you can have taxation with the intent to redistribute wealth.
In order to have socialism there must be government control or infringement on private property rights. Economist Hoppe writes about this a lot. Redistribution of wealth is an infringement of private property rights. So if you have taxation with the intent to redistribute wealth you can have socialism.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 2:21 pm to WaWaWeeWa
Pretty much any index that tracks standard of living or any of it's components have these same biased imbedded in them. The sheep eat it up so why would they stop?
Posted on 1/17/21 at 2:27 pm to PacMan01
quote:In a state socialist model, the state owns the means of production. . .and ideally answers to the people.
But one of the tenets of socialism is the “workers own the means of production” not the government, no?
In an anarcho-socialist model, the people own the means of production. . .this is what people mean when they say "communism"
The failure of this socio-economic system, is it tells you you CAN work. . .but does nothing to encourage and stimulate work. . .or even tell you WHY you should.
Also fails in certain basic necessities, like logistics and sanitation. Who gets the widgets from Detroit to Bangledesh? A guy that can choose to do anything is just gonna be a deckhand on a ship?
Somebody is gonna volunteer to clean out the sewage tanks and pick up the trash?
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 5:20 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 2:29 pm to PacMan01
quote:This is where it all falls apart.
If everyone’s basic needs are met
Posted on 1/17/21 at 2:34 pm to PacMan01
quote:
I’m just trying to better understand arguments against it.
It decreases quality of life for most people so that a few can benefit.
It does not work, has never worked and always leads to shortages and/or hyper inflation.
The workers do not, will never control the means of production. There will always be elites, regardless of system, who control planning and distribution.
The best way to handle planning and distribution is based on need (free-er markets) than central planned ones.
While "capitalism" doesn't work for all, Socialism works for relatively few.
Bolsheviks are pawns of the vanguard in a socialist system.
Socialism equals monopolies on almost every good and services, which is horrible for the consumer.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:13 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
You think a low tax rate is responsible for the deep state and the swamp?
I think that's part of it. It's not a big part, but it is most certainly a part.
quote:
On paper Joe Biden probably makes 200k. The problem isn’t what he makes on paper.
Agreed
quote:
The wealthy in this country pay a higher percentage of the bill than in Denmark.
That's not surprising. We have more wealthy people, so I'm sure they do contribute more. Do they pay a higher tax rate though?
quote:
The bottom 50% don’t pay anything and most at subsidized.
That would include most around here and they sure do complain about what they're paying.
I don't know what study/ranking you used for the discussion on healthcare rankings, so I can't check to verify your claims. Either way, we have mountains of evidence detailing the problems with our system and I'm highly skeptical that there's some huge, far-reaching conspiracy against the US system.
Our system is still better than most and I don't deny that. But I also suspect that you're fully aware of many problems we have with our system. Do you agree that it needs to be reformed? Would removing the ACA be enough in your mind? If so, then what are your solutions?
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