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What does “Christian nationalism” even mean?
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:22 pm
Saw this article "liked" on twitter by somebody and decided to read.
ETA: forgot to link the article.
LINK
I feel like it puts into some good words my frustration with the topic thrown around. I'm not all in on CN as a good thing, but i'm also not against it as preservation of mutually held beliefs and values. Christian Nationalism as espoused by Falwell or MTG, i'm not necessarily all in on.
Would be curious for other reformed poster's (i.e. Pettifogger or FooManChoo) takes.
ETA: forgot to link the article.
LINK
I feel like it puts into some good words my frustration with the topic thrown around. I'm not all in on CN as a good thing, but i'm also not against it as preservation of mutually held beliefs and values. Christian Nationalism as espoused by Falwell or MTG, i'm not necessarily all in on.
Would be curious for other reformed poster's (i.e. Pettifogger or FooManChoo) takes.
quote:
Perhaps it’s just indicative of my own slice of online evangelicalism, but the flurry around Christian nationalism seems to be reaching a zenith. Opposing sides are talking past one another, while often throwing verbal grenades, even as they seek to entrench their own views.
The debate unsettles me, and at present, I still find the term “Christian nationalism” unhelpful. I would not claim the label for myself. But so much of its usage depends on the person wielding it. Some take the term to mean that America is in a unique national covenant with God. That, I squarely reject.
quote:
I have sympathies with some of the ideas commonly associated with Christian nationalism. I understand and appreciate the unique role that Christianity played in shaping our nation’s tradition and values. Neither do I want that Christian influence to recede. As a conservative, I believe resolutely in the need for traditions to shape our common culture. Cutting a culture off from its good roots is nothing less than cultural self-hatred. Moreover, apart from a transcendent foundation for law and morality, no nation can long survive. I want a public morality influenced by Christianity but done so organically from the bottom up by the genuine and voluntary religious commitments of its people.
I also have major concerns with Christian nationalism. As a Baptist, I am convictionally opposed to identifying regeneration with nationhood. The Christian faith comes down to personal salvation and regeneration. The apparatus of government is ill-equipped to promote the supernatural end of man even if government requires supernatural foundation to keep it accountable (“In God We Trust” works for me). Whatever the personal faith of the office holder, I am opposed to magistrates as magistrates dictating theological matters for others.
quote:
I also believe, as a Christian, I have no greater right to civil liberties than does my Jewish or Muslim neighbor. They are Americans, too, without any further qualification. Even if my faith is numerically larger, they should not be made to feel like second-class citizens even as they rightfully recognize the role that majority culture plays in shaping the nation.
quote:
To those claiming the mantle “Christian nationalism,” this is my plea: Convince me this isn’t just a theology used to sacralize the culture or impose exclusionary political power. Get specific on what particular arrangements and applications would be entailed. Do not give me past historical examples that no longer apply. Tell me, how are you going to achieve sufficient enough majorities in a nation where Christianity is in decline? How will your movement not excuse, or worse, justify, the misuse of Christianity when and if it is used to perpetrate social harms as in the past? What self-corrections are built into the system? How will the ideal Christian nationalist state not simply be yet another handmaiden to state power that ends up diluting vibrant religion?
To progressive non-Christians who criticize Christian nationalism, here’s my plea: Convince me that your skepticism about Christian nationalism isn’t just a cover for wanting Christians out of politics and out of power. Convince me that Christian nationalism is not just another progressive epithet hurled against conservative Christians. Convince me that your opposition to Christians having political power is not really just a blanketed opposition to what others might simply call the natural law. It’s just too convenient to delegitimize the areas where progressives are always prone to disagree with Christians by slapping the label “Christian nationalism” on it. So where, exactly, does the line differentiating opposition to “Christian nationalism” in particular, and opposition to biblical morality in general, begin and end?
To Christians skeptical of Christian nationalism, here’s my plea: Convince me you have a political theology that isn’t merely rehashed Anabaptism, a political theology that is high on pietism but averse to wielding political power for the common good. Show me that you have a political theology born not only of redemption, but also creation.
This post was edited on 10/27/22 at 2:29 pm
23
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:23 pm to 3nOut
Means wypipo.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:24 pm to 3nOut
What does Falwell say about Christian Nationalism? I thought he was currently dead at the present time.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:26 pm to 3nOut
it means whatever they want.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:27 pm to ninthward
quote:
it means whatever they want.
This is the most apt answer, and it couldn't be more relevant and accurate. These people own our language and steer it in whatever way they want. Today what Christian nationalism means is anyone who is pro-America, not actually a nationalist.... and of course, a Christian.
This post was edited on 10/27/22 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:28 pm to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
What does Falwell say about Christian Nationalism? I thought he was currently dead at the present time.
Falwell Jr. is who i was referring to. He latched on to Trump because he saw a lot of religious liberty there (which i am full in support of,) but he obviously was found wanting to be a leader in the space.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:30 pm to 3nOut
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:43 pm to Screaming Viking
That lead me to the word association skit with Chase and Pryor. I laughed.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:47 pm to 3nOut
I've debated CN with some reformed folks who are more progressive (they're probably not actual progressives, they're just very establishment anti-Trump types).
I've seen it characterized by that crowd as more or less, if it doesn't impact or limit the rights of non-Christians in the state, it's probably not actually CN. If it does, it's CN and it's a problem. Of course, this group labels everything under the sun as CN at their convenience but they'll retreat to that distinction.
And my response is that a state that promotes Christianity with mostly insignificant infringement on non-Christians may or may not be CN, but if it is, then I don't think the arguments against it (from Christians) are persuasive, at least on faith-based grounds.
Take something like a blasphemy law. Let's say, it's unlawful and punishable by fines, etc. to publicly mock or disparage Christ. This is the type of concept that I think would get someone like David French all in a tizzy about the loss of civil liberties. So on one hand you've got French bemoaning white Trumpy Christian nationalism and how we're conflating politics with Christianity to the detriment of the latter, but then when it comes to a society modestly enforcing respect of the prevailing faith of the citizenry, secular pluralism and civil liberties of a small minority is suddenly elevated to religious-like importance. I just think people like French want to bemoan the cultural rot that comes from a less Christian nation, but when presented with an alternative, cry about what will be lost from the status quo.
Anyway, I'm not advocating for blasphemy laws necessarily, I just think the reasoning of these people is very circular. Instead of "here's why I don't think CN is practical for governing nor effective for Kingdom work" it's typically some garbled thing about how white Trumpism will undermine Christianity by stripping first amendment rights, as though the latter is part and parcel of Christianity. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The truth is that I think most of what we're seeing isn't a real concern over CN, it's a class of Christian folks who are wed to liberalism and are terrified at how quickly Christian conservatives are starting to consider other options. And those options - importantly - don't have much use for David French, etc.
I've seen it characterized by that crowd as more or less, if it doesn't impact or limit the rights of non-Christians in the state, it's probably not actually CN. If it does, it's CN and it's a problem. Of course, this group labels everything under the sun as CN at their convenience but they'll retreat to that distinction.
And my response is that a state that promotes Christianity with mostly insignificant infringement on non-Christians may or may not be CN, but if it is, then I don't think the arguments against it (from Christians) are persuasive, at least on faith-based grounds.
Take something like a blasphemy law. Let's say, it's unlawful and punishable by fines, etc. to publicly mock or disparage Christ. This is the type of concept that I think would get someone like David French all in a tizzy about the loss of civil liberties. So on one hand you've got French bemoaning white Trumpy Christian nationalism and how we're conflating politics with Christianity to the detriment of the latter, but then when it comes to a society modestly enforcing respect of the prevailing faith of the citizenry, secular pluralism and civil liberties of a small minority is suddenly elevated to religious-like importance. I just think people like French want to bemoan the cultural rot that comes from a less Christian nation, but when presented with an alternative, cry about what will be lost from the status quo.
Anyway, I'm not advocating for blasphemy laws necessarily, I just think the reasoning of these people is very circular. Instead of "here's why I don't think CN is practical for governing nor effective for Kingdom work" it's typically some garbled thing about how white Trumpism will undermine Christianity by stripping first amendment rights, as though the latter is part and parcel of Christianity. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The truth is that I think most of what we're seeing isn't a real concern over CN, it's a class of Christian folks who are wed to liberalism and are terrified at how quickly Christian conservatives are starting to consider other options. And those options - importantly - don't have much use for David French, etc.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 2:57 pm to 3nOut
quote:
decided to read.
Good article. Thanks for sharing.
This post was edited on 10/27/22 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:02 pm to 3nOut
It means that they want to take away even more of your freedom, baw
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:05 pm to 3nOut
I agree with the sentiments espoused by the author when he says, I still find the term “Christian nationalism” unhelpful. I would not claim the label for myself. But so much of its usage depends on the person wielding it. Some take the term to mean that America is in a unique national covenant with God. That, I squarely reject.
It could just be my lack of exposure on this issue, but at least from what I've seen, the term "Christian Nationalist" is a moniker used by the ideological left to paint conservative Christians (especially white males) as racist for their desire to not have open borders or throw money at other countries in support of international priorities over the priorities of our own nation. In response, I've seen Christian conservatives hold on to the label as a sort of middle finger to the left. In reality, I think there's a lot of nuance to all of this that isn't helped by lumping it all together under one term.
My identity is with Jesus Christ, and therefore my supreme allegiance is to Him, as a Christian. I support nationalism only to the extent that I believe that it's the biblical role of the civil magistrate to provide justice for its own people, not the people of the rest of the world, and therefore I agree with the view of nationalism that supports a focus or priority on national (American, in my context) governance as opposed to international governance.
Along with this, I believe it is perfectly reasonable and just to have immigration policies that intend to support the rights and welfare of the citizens of the country before the desires of those from other countries. That being the case, I don't support "open borders", but controlled borders.
In terms of the government, itself, I believe it has the obligation as a servant of God and as an institution that has derived authority from Jesus Christ to honor Jesus as Lord and to provide just and equitable laws (not atheistic communism) and provide conditions favorable to the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't believe it is the role of the state to enforce religious laws, though (I'm not a Theonomist or Christian Reconstructionist) or to put to death heretics. I believe that the State should be separate from the Church, but that both should work together in their separate spheres.
In conclusion, I don't consider myself a Christian Nationalist, but a (Reformed) Christian, regardless of what the left or anyone else wants to call me in order to dehumanize me.
It could just be my lack of exposure on this issue, but at least from what I've seen, the term "Christian Nationalist" is a moniker used by the ideological left to paint conservative Christians (especially white males) as racist for their desire to not have open borders or throw money at other countries in support of international priorities over the priorities of our own nation. In response, I've seen Christian conservatives hold on to the label as a sort of middle finger to the left. In reality, I think there's a lot of nuance to all of this that isn't helped by lumping it all together under one term.
My identity is with Jesus Christ, and therefore my supreme allegiance is to Him, as a Christian. I support nationalism only to the extent that I believe that it's the biblical role of the civil magistrate to provide justice for its own people, not the people of the rest of the world, and therefore I agree with the view of nationalism that supports a focus or priority on national (American, in my context) governance as opposed to international governance.
Along with this, I believe it is perfectly reasonable and just to have immigration policies that intend to support the rights and welfare of the citizens of the country before the desires of those from other countries. That being the case, I don't support "open borders", but controlled borders.
In terms of the government, itself, I believe it has the obligation as a servant of God and as an institution that has derived authority from Jesus Christ to honor Jesus as Lord and to provide just and equitable laws (not atheistic communism) and provide conditions favorable to the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't believe it is the role of the state to enforce religious laws, though (I'm not a Theonomist or Christian Reconstructionist) or to put to death heretics. I believe that the State should be separate from the Church, but that both should work together in their separate spheres.
In conclusion, I don't consider myself a Christian Nationalist, but a (Reformed) Christian, regardless of what the left or anyone else wants to call me in order to dehumanize me.
This post was edited on 10/27/22 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:06 pm to 3nOut
When an eight year old calls you a name just agree, they get thrown for a loop.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:36 pm to 3nOut
Christian nationalism is two parts.
1) nationalist
That just means a belief that the United States is a distinct culture and geographic region worthy of preserving. That the needs of the country are better served when taken into consideration apart from the global whole.
2) Christian
The morality and ethics of Christianity are a solid basis for government, laws and everyday life. The natural law writ large onto the culture.
Christian nationalism need not espouse a theocracy. Only that the 10 Commandments aren’t necessarily an evil social construct.
1) nationalist
That just means a belief that the United States is a distinct culture and geographic region worthy of preserving. That the needs of the country are better served when taken into consideration apart from the global whole.
2) Christian
The morality and ethics of Christianity are a solid basis for government, laws and everyday life. The natural law writ large onto the culture.
Christian nationalism need not espouse a theocracy. Only that the 10 Commandments aren’t necessarily an evil social construct.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:37 pm to 3nOut
God
Family
Country
Family
Country
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:37 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
mean that America is in a unique national covenant with God. That, I squarely reject.
Agreed.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:39 pm to 3nOut
Another term made up by the MSM meant to sound racist or discriminatory... like "white nationalism".
This post was edited on 10/27/22 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 10/27/22 at 3:40 pm to 3nOut
It's an astroturfed term started by Soros-backed political organizations.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 4:50 pm to the808bass
thanks for the replies my fellow brothers in Christ. it's a conversation i've been struggling with as of late to make sure my politics don't override my citizenship in heaven.
Pettifogger, agreed. I have a lot of people that were turned off by Trump's behavior (mostly justified) and his followers worship of him (entirely justified.) Most of them just wanted to make sure that they knew they disapproved of how bad Trump was. They weren't all in on abortion or LGBT stuff, but BLM in 2020 gave them the scapegoat they needed.
yes. i'm very against abortion. i don't want to make abortion or extramarital sex illegal (I actually do, but being realistic)... but life would be a lot better for everybody if people stopped banging out of wedlock. I'm not going to throw you in jail for not listening to me, but it'd be a lot cooler if you did.
agreed on all points. i don't want to be an a-hole, but also, we exist as a country for a reason. i'm all about immigrants (the Bible commands this,) but showing up willie nillie into our country and just assimilating without paying into the tax base is ridiculous and will ruin everybody in a welfare state. i'm happy helping other countries when it's appropriate. gender studies in pakistan and $40 billion to Ukraine does not fall into those buckets.
it's a difficult line to walk.
quote:
I've debated CN with some reformed folks who are more progressive (they're probably not actual progressives, they're just very establishment anti-Trump types).
Pettifogger, agreed. I have a lot of people that were turned off by Trump's behavior (mostly justified) and his followers worship of him (entirely justified.) Most of them just wanted to make sure that they knew they disapproved of how bad Trump was. They weren't all in on abortion or LGBT stuff, but BLM in 2020 gave them the scapegoat they needed.
quote:
The morality and ethics of Christianity are a solid basis for government, laws and everyday life. The natural law writ large onto the culture.
yes. i'm very against abortion. i don't want to make abortion or extramarital sex illegal (I actually do, but being realistic)... but life would be a lot better for everybody if people stopped banging out of wedlock. I'm not going to throw you in jail for not listening to me, but it'd be a lot cooler if you did.
quote:
My identity is with Jesus Christ, and therefore my supreme allegiance is to Him, as a Christian. I support nationalism only to the extent that I believe that it's the biblical role of the civil magistrate to provide justice for its own people, not the people of the rest of the world, and therefore I agree with the view of nationalism that supports a focus or priority on national (American, in my context) governance as opposed to international governance.
Along with this, I believe it is perfectly reasonable and just to have immigration policies that intend to support the rights and welfare of the citizens of the country before the desires of those from other countries. That being the case, I don't support "open borders", but controlled borders.
agreed on all points. i don't want to be an a-hole, but also, we exist as a country for a reason. i'm all about immigrants (the Bible commands this,) but showing up willie nillie into our country and just assimilating without paying into the tax base is ridiculous and will ruin everybody in a welfare state. i'm happy helping other countries when it's appropriate. gender studies in pakistan and $40 billion to Ukraine does not fall into those buckets.
it's a difficult line to walk.
Posted on 10/27/22 at 5:02 pm to m2pro
quote:
These people own our language and steer it in whatever way they want.
And I absolutely love and revel when we use the same language and terms against them and it makes them mad..
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