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re: "Western Civilization" has demonstrated its superiority in many areas
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:47 am to Ace Midnight
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:47 am to Ace Midnight
But the one major drawback is that's it's not a sustainable model for the future.
It really doesn't make sense to judge cultures against one another anyway.
It really doesn't make sense to judge cultures against one another anyway.
2
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:50 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
But the one major drawback is that's it's not a sustainable model for the future.
How so?
quote:
It really doesn't make sense to judge cultures against one another anyway.
I get that there will always be inherent bias towards the culture one grew up in (and many, many areas will be subjective), but there are aspects I can clearly, demonstrably say:
Western culture is superior to most Eastern cultures for rights of women, rights of workers, technological advancement, medical care, freedom of thought/expression (although we may be past our high water mark in the West with the now generation old "political correctness" movement), prevalent standard of living, etc.
This post was edited on 1/11/19 at 9:51 am
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:51 am to wmr
quote:
It's simple, when viewed from their perspective.
1. Within the West, all other cultures are encouraged to have "pride", and every contribution is magnified, while every short-coming is explained as "oppression".
2. ANY pride in the West, or within European people groups, is called "white supremacy" and considered to be hateful and evil.
But what I cant understand is that they dislike the west so much (mostly because of whitey), why do they stay here?
If I lived in a neighborhood and hated all my neighbors I would move to a place that I liked. I would not try to force my wants\beliefs\needs upon my neighbors.
Its very similar to liberals. Many said they would leave the US if Trump was elected, but not a single one that I know of actually left.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:52 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Sure, there have been issues. Colonialism, most recently. This superiority in key areas has led to a certain amount of white supremacy (whether violently racist, epitomized by Nazism, or the soft bigotry of low expectations demonstrated by, perhaps well-intentioned, progressives in the West). Plus the 2 European wars that put the world at risk.
It's worth noting that in terms of an inflated sense of racial identity and superiority, National Socialist Germany had nothing on the Imperial Japanese Empire. To that I would add the Caste stratification of India.
I think, to these, you can add a sense of noblesse oblige taken on by the West that was originally paternal and charitable (in the King James Version definition) and, dare I say humble in its motivations but in its practices and manifestations became domineering, tone deaf, and eventually adopted an unscriptural and unwarranted superiority in its relationships among the races and cultures it claimed it wanted to "show the way".
Though educated in The Inner Temple in London and at Harrow and beneficiaries of a paternal yet exploitive colonialism, Gandhi and Nehru both fought in their own ways to end Great Britain's domination of India.
Apparently when sinful men are involved it seems noble charitable motivations often become the justifications used to dominate, subjugate, and exploit another nation or people.
I believe the globalists have these kinds of "noble" justifications for destroying the outmoded (in their minds) nation-state model and subjugating the planet under the rule of an elite oligarchy. History up to now has been dress rehearsals for the main event.
Color me glum this Friday morning and wandering the margins of your topic. Apologies and...
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:57 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
How so?
We consume more resources than we have, therefore we require the resources of non-western civ nations. Often times we simply take them by brute force, other times we may simply dictate the terms under which the resources will be made available to us.
Other cultures have found how to live within their means, and/or the carrying capacity of their environments.
If the United States represents the acme of western civ, the mountains of trash we create is a monument to our wastefulness. I don't believe it's sustainable.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:57 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Thus the real tension is that by suggesting that white men are owed something specifically by virtue of building this civilization, or that women are owed something, or that any specific racial, religious, ethnic, gender group are owed something, the whole project is thrown into disarray, because with recognition, the notion becomes not "all men are created equal" but "some are more equal than others."
I for the most part agree with this, but where are white men saying they are owed something for building civilization? And I'm not counting the fringe idiots like the KKK. Their numbers are inconsequential.
And as for the rest of the above, that is exactly what is happening in our society today. And many see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:58 am to Ace Midnight
quote:I'll accept it.
"Western Civilization" has demonstrated its superiority in many areas
of human endeavor.
Military prowess. Technology. Wealth generation. Standard of living, particularly for the middle class. Lifting teeming masses out of poverty (particularly via capitalism). Reasonably responsible government. Safety. Security. The excess capacity to help out the developing world and neighbors in times of crisis.
Sure, there have been issues. Colonialism, most recently. This superiority in key areas has led to a certain amount of white supremacy (whether violently racist, epitomized by Nazism, or the soft bigotry of low expectations demonstrated by, perhaps well-intentioned, progressives in the West). Plus the 2 European wars that put the world at risk.
quote:Nah. We good.
But, is preaching its virtues (of which there are clearly many), per se racist or a form of racism?
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:58 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
The lack of ability of self-critique is fundamentally why I can't support any Western chauvinists, because I think it is insecure for no reason.
i wouldn't say "no reason"
the concept of "the West" is legitimately under attack and anti-Western ideas are taking over Western nations
fundamental rights are being eroded, the promotion of Western history is being attacked, and if you don't celebrate the new ideas it's becoming a criminal offense. there are reasons to fear the attack and erosion of Western culture
and yes I know it doesn't have one definition but that's somewhat irrelevant
and yes you can spin this anti-West dogma into a "criticism" but it's much more than that
quote:
Thus the real tension is that by suggesting that white men are owed something specifically by virtue of building this civilization
that's more of a mythology of the new Left ideology, a tool created by Cultural Marxists to make supporting he west akin to hating women or wanting to rape them
quote:
because with recognition, the notion becomes not "all men are created equal" but "some are more equal than others."
admitting what works and giving credit for historical support of that culture is not promoting the idea that those within that culture are "more equal than others", especially since culture is adaptable by anyone
you're associating larger concepts to individuals and that's your flaw, here
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:59 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
It really doesn't make sense to judge cultures against one another anyway.
i am laughing
Posted on 1/11/19 at 9:59 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
We consume more resources than we have, therefore we require the resources of non-western civ nations. Often times we simply take them by brute force, other times we may simply dictate the terms under which the resources will be made available to us.
This hasn't been applicable to western democracies in quite some time.
quote:
If the United States represents the acme of western civ, the mountains of trash we create is a monument to our wastefulness. I don't believe it's sustainable.
Again, this hasn't been applicable to the US in quite some time.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:00 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Western culture is superior to most Eastern cultures
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:01 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
The lack of ability of self-critique is fundamentally why I can't support any Western chauvinists, because I think it is insecure for no reason. So what if women blame the "white patriarchy" for their station? I've never seen a chauvinist point out the history of women's liberation is tied to the history of the liberation of men as well. It isn't as though the lives of the peasant man was meaningfully much better than the peasant woman. Any Enlightenment era philosopher would support something like multiculturalism, as there is nothing more multicultural than the notion that "all men (and implicitly women, children, all races, all genders, etc.) are created equal." Locke specifically supported the notion of this sort of equality. The Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor goes into great detail about the Enlightenment and Multiculturalism in his book, but there is one fatal flaw in this metric; the whole project comes apart when one group demands special recognition, for any reason whatsoever.
Great comment. I completely agree that self critique is the West best asset. Dont ignore internal problems. Adapt and grow and find better solutions by keeping what works and replacing what does not.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:02 am to Centinel
quote:Yes, but operating in that fashion arguably created the gap in the first place. I'd compare it to white supremacy in the US. Sure, we aren't really white supremacist anymore - but the several hundreds years of aggressively applying it has massive, lingering effects.
This hasn't been applicable to western democracies in quite some time.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:02 am to WildTchoupitoulas
compare Japan when ole Admiral Perry showed up to the West
hell, 100 years later China was decades behind Japan, still
and we're not talking about just technology, we're talking about feudal/imperial societies here. they hadn't advanced passed that
hell, 100 years later China was decades behind Japan, still
and we're not talking about just technology, we're talking about feudal/imperial societies here. they hadn't advanced passed that
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:03 am to volod
quote:
Adapt and grow and find better solutions by keeping what works
The problem is many on the left do not want to do this simply due the fact it was created by a white male.
And my, and I think SFP's point in all this is that current critique of western civilization by the progressive left has nothing to do with improving our society, and everything to do with destroying it in order to gain power.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:03 am to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
Apparently when sinful men are involved it seems noble charitable motivations often become the justifications used to dominate, subjugate, and exploit another nation or people.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I also want to make a case that American civilization is distinct from European, or has become in the 20th century. Stan Brakhage, the great American filmmaker, once said something like "Europe is dead because it looks to the past" which I think is true enough. American civilization is attempting something entirely different, a model not based specifically on ethnic nationalism (as that wouldn't make sense given the wide variety of nationalities that would be posed against one another if they held onto the notion of where they came from was important), but one based on meritocracy and pluralism. One reason why America could succeed Europe was because, even when it was more racist, it allowed talented people to find the education they needed. If someone like Robert Oppenheimer was born in Europe, what would his life have been? By virtue of being born in America, he was afforded opportunities in spite of his Jewish heritage. In fact, his Americanness superseded his Jewishness, as Oppenheimer was fond of lecturing European colleagues on the greatness of America.
I can't stress enough how easily this unique project can come apart if the perverse tribalism of the Old World is allowed to take hold here. It will undo progress which was fought for, and lead us to be like Europeans again, lost in the future because we are stuck in the past.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:04 am to Ace Midnight
Delete
This post was edited on 1/11/19 at 10:04 am
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:05 am to Centinel
quote:
And my, and I think SFP's point in all this is that current critique of western civilization by the progressive left has nothing to do with improving our society, and everything to do with destroying it in order to gain power.
it's not a critique. it's an insidious attack. two totally separate things
we already have the noble savage myth. we can add the "critique of the West" myth to the list for these discussions
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:06 am to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Yes, but operating in that fashion arguably created the gap in the first place.
And the time in which that gap was created has been surpassed by the time western democracies got rid of colonialism. With very little improvements or advances by those cultures. And in fact some have regressed.
quote:
but the several hundreds years of aggressively applying it has massive, lingering effects.
And I'd argue those "lingering effects" are not a result of a history of white supremacy, but by ham-fisted or outright calculated shitty government policy.
See: Anything by LBJ.
Posted on 1/11/19 at 10:06 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It really doesn't make sense to judge cultures against one another anyway. i am laughing
Well, if you could look at the cultures that sustained the development of humankind for the last 100,000 years of our existence, could you say our is better than those that allowed us to thrive for so long?
Ultimately, the time to judge our culture is not now, it will be when it inevitably falls. We have no idea where it is leading us to.
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