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re: Vaccinated being as contagious as non should gut the argument for mandates
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:17 pm to crewdepoo
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:17 pm to crewdepoo
quote:
90% of hospital visits are non vaxed. /thread
85% of deaths are not fully vaxxed. That means that vaxxed hospitalizations have worse outcomes than the non-vaxxed. (10% of the population producing 15% of the deaths.)
1
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:18 pm to Lsut81
quote:And folks don't want to believe it but hospitals are overrun with Covid hospitalizations therefore everyone is screwed with insane waits to get hospital beds as a result.
And?
But I know, that's all untrue and not really happening.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:19 pm to bamadontcare
quote:
That’s a lie. Every time you post it I will call you a liar
That’s a big problem. People lying and no one calling it out.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:21 pm to SuperDad
quote:If they are, then yes. Guess what it takes for a vaccinated person to carry the same load though?
If they are carrying the same viral load, how is that not true?
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:22 pm to shel311
quote:No they aren't.
And folks don't want to believe it but hospitals are overrun with Covid hospitalizations
quote:False
therefore everyone is screwed with insane waits to get hospital beds as a result.
quote:Correct
But I know, that's all untrue and not really happening.
And, if you thought about it for more than 5 minutes, you'd be able to deduce the absurdity of the assertion on your own.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:23 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
If they are, then yes. Guess what it takes for a vaccinated person to carry the same load though?
Seems you had another sentence you needed to write. So, carry on with it
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:24 pm to HalfCocked
quote:
You do realize roughly 50% (see what I did there when unsure of the actual % in my statement)
Studies prove that 78.3% of all statistics are made up.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:24 pm to SuperDad
quote:
What does this fact have to do with the question?
The argument for mandating was because supposedly, being non-vaxxed made you a threat to others which, clearly, isn't the case(any more than if you get vaxxed)
Because they will just change the argument for vaccinating to the same "we don't want to overwhelm the hospitals" BS that they used in the early days of the pandemic.
2 week, baw! Flatten the curve!
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:28 pm to AUHighPlainsDrifter
quote:Yep
Because they will just change the argument for vaccinating to the same "we don't want to overwhelm the hospitals" BS that they used in the early days of the pandemic.
They did it right in this thread!
It's ridiculous.
10s of millions of Americans have been vaccinated or have had the virus so they have natural immunity OR both. Yet somehow, with so many people far less likely to get the virus, our hospitals are still being "over run" even though they never really got overrun when there was no vaccine at all and virtually no one in America had been exposed.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:30 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Natural immunity should gut the argument for mandates.
I don't agree. Do think you should have no say on whether they inject you with a drug that you don't want just because you don't have any natural immunity? Natural immunity will reduce the number of people impacted by the mandate, but it doesn't gut it.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:31 pm to SuperDad
quote:No?
Seems you had another sentence you needed to write. So, carry on with it
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:35 pm to AlxTgr
quote:Well, you had a point you seemed to think you were going to make. It isn't my responsibility to play the straight man for ya.
No?
If you have something, add it.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:38 pm to SuperDad
quote:
The entire argument for mandating is that somehow, the unvaccinated are presenting a risk to everyone else.
But if the only benefit to being vaccinated is that you are personally less likely to get a bad case of COVID, but you're still just as contagious, what's the argument for forcing someone else to get vaccinated?
Shouldn't that just revert back to "you take what risk you're willing to take and I'll take what risk I'm willing to take"?
Show me the study that states this.
The only study I know of is about vaccinated people with delta infections having higher viral loads than with other variants.
Unfortunately with that study people leave of the "than with other variants" and try to convince people that vaccinated people have higher viral loads than unvaccinated people.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:42 pm to SuperDad
quote:
If they are carrying the same viral load, how is that not true?
Oh, I'm sure one could argue that maybe they have fewer symptoms that project the virus onto others.
Of course, you then have to deal with the reality that if a vaccinated person has a case of COVID that basically presents as a really bad cold, that person is probably just going to Walgreens for some good over the counter meds and going about their day thinking they're "safe". And, promptly coughing on everyone.
Vaccinated people are also more likely to wear masks.
The same people who refuse to wear masks are the ones refusing vaccines.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:48 pm to ChapelHillSooner
quote:According the New York Times, the CDC says that 99% of all COVID cases currently being tracked are Delta variant.
Unfortunately with that study people leave of the "than with other variants" and try to convince people that vaccinated people have higher viral loads than unvaccinated people.
The extremely transmissible Delta variant of the coronavirus, which overtook all other variants in the United States just a few months ago, now represents more than 99 percent of cases tracked in the country, according to the data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:49 pm to ChapelHillSooner
quote:Unsupported assertion entirely
Vaccinated people are also more likely to wear masks.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 2:56 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
How is it not? If the viral load is the same, these people may be even more dangerous as many are unaware that they are contagious and not forced to submit to testing. Under the Biden mandate, they would be extremely dangerous.
CBS
Thanks for the link.
Few of points to note:
1. This is only among people who have breakthrough infections. That is a small subset of those who are vaccinated.
2. There is nothing in this study indicating that the breakthrough infections are more likely to be asymptomatic. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated can and do have asymptomatic cases.
3. There is likely some selection bias here. Most vaccinated people aren't being tested unless they are symptomatic. So it would be reasonable to conclude that these symptomatic people do have high viral loads merely because they are symptomatic. If the study was testing everyone at random then I will retract this point.
4. Vaccinated people are far more likely to wear masks and unvaccinated.
5. This is definitely not an argument against vaccination. Since the mortality risk is almost exclusively on the unvaccinated, the fact that the vaccinated can't protect the unvaccinated as well as first thought should encourage the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
6. From a more in-depth article about the study: "The viral load does decrease faster in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individual, meaning that the vaccinated are thought to be contagious for a shorter period of time, according to the CDC."
Posted on 9/21/21 at 3:00 pm to ChapelHillSooner
quote:Well done.
ChapelHillSooner
But,
quote:Say what?
4. Vaccinated people are far more likely to wear masks and unvaccinated.
Posted on 9/21/21 at 3:01 pm to ChapelHillSooner
quote:
1. This is only among people who have breakthrough infections. That is a small subset of those who are vaccinated.
Well yeah. Unvaxxed people with COVID are a small subset of unvaxxed people.
quote:Your point?
2. There is nothing in this study indicating that the breakthrough infections are more likely to be asymptomatic. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated can and do have asymptomatic cases.
quote:There's no reason to "conclude" that at all other than in your head.
3. There is likely some selection bias here. Most vaccinated people aren't being tested unless they are symptomatic. So it would be reasonable to conclude that these symptomatic people do have high viral loads merely because they are symptomatic. If the study was testing everyone at random then I will retract this point.
quote:Completely unsupported assertion. Especially given that for months, people were told if they got vaccinated, they wouldn't need masks anymore.
4. Vaccinated people are far more likely to wear masks and unvaccinated.
quote:This thread isn't arguing against vaccination. It is arguing against MANDATING vaccination.
5. This is definitely not an argument against vaccination. Since the mortality risk is almost exclusively on the unvaccinated, the fact that the vaccinated can't protect the unvaccinated as well as first thought should encourage the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
quote:So, now were are literally talking matters of degree. That's how pathetically you guys are hanging on to your mandates.
"The viral load does decrease faster in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individual, meaning that the vaccinated are thought to be contagious for a shorter period of time, according to the CDC."
"Yeah, we're just as contagious but not quite as long!!!!"
Posted on 9/21/21 at 3:02 pm to SuperDad
quote:
According the New York Times, the CDC says that 99% of all COVID cases currently being tracked are Delta variant.
The extremely transmissible Delta variant of the coronavirus, which overtook all other variants in the United States just a few months ago, now represents more than 99 percent of cases tracked in the country, according to the data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
That is not the point. The point was that people took a study that said "vaccinated people with breakthrough cases with the delta variant have 251 times the viral load than with other variants" and misrepresented it as "vaccinated people with breakthrough cases with the delta variant have 251 times the viral load as unvaccinated people."
That second quoted part which you see repeated memes is absolutely false.
Reuters Fact Check
I am not denying that delta is more challenging for vaccinations than other variants nor that delta isn't by far the most prominent variant. Neither of these facts have anything to do with my point.
This post was edited on 9/21/21 at 3:14 pm
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