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Message
re: Ukrainians have now attacked a second critical Russian nuclear early warning radar.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 3:26 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 6/17/24 at 3:26 pm to NC_Tigah
I guess I'm confused about which election you keep referring to as rigged by the U.S.? And "violent insurrectionists" overturned the election?
1
Posted on 6/17/24 at 3:44 pm to LSURussian
quote:
They certainly were not "violent insurrectionists." They were everyday citizens who didn't want a Russian proxy to become President of their country via election fraud.
Would you have a sense of the consensus of the general population, (outside your group), as to whether they had pro, or anti EU, or pro, or anti-Russian alliance leanings. Which were the choices being presented at the time.
The year 2004 was a turbulent time and I had access to some info, regarding such things through my retired Full Bird Colonel, (Army) co-workers.
The demographics of west Ukraine and eastern Ukraine come into play, even then.
We were working together as Government contractors.
ETA; It might have been more 2010 ish.
This post was edited on 6/17/24 at 4:16 pm
Posted on 6/17/24 at 3:54 pm to LSURussian
quote:Election of 2010 with ~4000 foreign observers, and a result widely regarded by them as free, fair, and transparent. In 2013 western interests hooked up with Ukrainian agitators in an expansion of the Occupy Wall Street model with the goal of overthrowing the Yanukovych presidency and installing a pro-western junta. They were successful via the Euromaidan in early 2014.
I guess I'm confused about which election you keep referring to as rigged by the U.S.? And "violent insurrectionists" overturned the election?
It appears, Yanukovych's personal and political leanings were based first on Ukrainian speakers advantaging themselves over Russian speakers in the Donbass. Ethnic equality became basis of the Party of Regions national popularity. To the extent Putin willingly inserted supportive Russian influence, Yanukovych appreciated the ally.
Though he brought Manafort in as a close advisor, Yanukovych ended up shying away from Manafort's advice to align with western economies. In the end, I don't think he trusted western motives. Judging by ensuing Ukrainian catastrophes, he may well have had the right instinct.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 3:57 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 6/17/24 at 4:52 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
So why didn’t they invade the Baltic states prior to their Induction into NATO?
Putin came to power in 2000. At first he tried to play nice with the west. The Baltics were asked to come into the NATO fold in 2002 and admitted in 2004. Putin had not bowed up to prevent the addition of all his former border buffer states into NATO. So there was the time when his bordering countries were able to slip into NATO under the wire. And he has lost most all of his border countries to NATO now. But Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia are squishy enough they could opt out of NATO if they found an advantage with Russia (Energy). And who the hell knows what Turkey will do. They are trying to become an Islamist nation.
That's why Putin did not prevent the Baltic states from joining NATO. But by the time this talk came around for Ukraine, he was/is having none of it.
Hey, send me another stupid meme.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 4:56 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
You believe if there is a protest, then the protesters should run the country.
Do you believe I said that? Never did.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 5:03 pm to doubleb
The stooge:
Honest John:
quote:
Since the revolution, Yanukovych has been convicted in absentia of high treason against Ukraine. He is wanted by the Prosecutor General of Ukraine, charged with responsibility for mass murder of the Maidan protesters, as well as abuse of power, misappropriation of public funds, bribery, and property theft.
Honest John:
quote:
On 16 February 2023, Switzerland launched proceedings to confiscate $140.89 million in assets from Yanukovych's swiss bank accounts stating that they were of "illicit origin" and his assets will be frozen until the trial is completed.[282]
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:21 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Ah, okay. That election was totally fricked up from the get-go. I'm not sure you have a complete picture of some of the things happening back then when Yanukovych got elected in 2010.
Election of 2010
Just going off of memory, there were charges and counter charges, not about election fraud, but about the legality of the election which put a huge cloud on their fledgling democracy.
The Rada (parliament) had changed the election laws in 2009 pertaining to presidential election dates and procedures and somebody forgot to read the fine print. The election was held on the wrong date in 2010, "wrong" as in not in agreement with the election law passed in 2009.
So was the election legal and binding or did there have to be do-over?
And it got worse from there...
Yanukovych had campaigned on making Ukraine "neutral' neither favoring NATO nor Russia.
Within days of the election, he flip-flopped and tilted the government towards Moscow, even to the point of proposing that the Russian language be adopted as a "co-national language" along with Ukrainian.
I learned when I worked a couple of weeks in Lviv in western Ukraine, not far from the Polish border, they don't want to speak Russian. The first morning I worked there I held a meeting with about 25 people and I thought I'd thrill them by speaking Russian and thus not having to rely on using an interpreter. BIG MISTAKE!
Within a few words, I felt the temperature in the room drop about 30 degrees. Almost immediately, my Ukrainian assistant/interpreter who had traveled with me (by train) to Lviv called me aside and said, "Don't speak Russian here. They don't like it. Just speak English and I'll translate into Ukrainian." I said, "Yes, ma'am."
So, I apologized to the group, in English, and blamed my faux pas on being a stupid American. Smiles returned and all was fine. But I never said another Russian word while I was there.
The background of the Russian resentment in that area is after WWII Ukrainian partisans continued a guerilla war against the Soviet occupiers which lasted a few years, up until the early 1950's as I recall. The Soviets finally prevailed by their shear numbers, brutality and arms. They killed thousands of Ukrainians who opposed the newest Soviet occupation.
But the final straw regarding Yanukovych and his favoritism towards Russia was he gave a speech where he basically denied the Holodomor was a genocide. (The Holodomor was when Stalin confiscated all of Ukraine's grain crops for a few years in the early 1930's and 8 million Ukrainians starved to death. Stalin did it because there was a fledgling independence from Russia movement happening in Ukraine so the Ukrainians HAD to be punished.)
Denying the Holodomor was a genocide in Ukraine would be akin to the Governor of Texas giving a speech saying the Texans defending the Alamo got what they deserved from the Messicans. It would be bigly frowned upon.
And there were other things: Yanky gave Russia the Crimean naval base for the Bear's Black Sea fleet, he signed a gas purchase agreement with Russia that had inflated prices for the gas which some Ukrainians considered was the quid pro quo for Russia having financed his election in 2010, he shut down the effort for Ukraine to join the European market group and instead guided Ukraine towards Russia's markets and he even had the nerve to say publicly he admired the Soviet Union's old KGB, the secret police.
As Crash Davis told the pitching coach in Bull Durham in a meeting of the infielders on the mound in a game, "There's a lot of shite going on here..."
I tuned it all out since I wasn't going back to Ukraine anytime soon at that time. That was also about the time when I was first diagnosed with colon cancer and I had other things on my mind.
This post was edited on 6/17/24 at 7:42 pm
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:27 pm to LSURussian
Great post and thanks for the relevant personal insight
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:27 pm to LSURussian
Come on man, you’re ruining the man’s narrative. You must be mistaken.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 7:37 pm to doubleb
quote:Don't be harsh towards NC_Tigah.
Come on man, you’re ruining the man’s narrative.
He's one of the best posters on here and he and I can disagree with each other without either of us being disagreeable.
A rare feat on here these days indeed...
Posted on 6/17/24 at 8:11 pm to LSURussian
quote:he's a moron
Don't be harsh towards NC_Tigah.
He's one of the best posters on here
Posted on 6/17/24 at 8:45 pm to LSURussian
quote:
He's one of the best posters on here and he and I can disagree with each other without either of us being disagreeable.
He is normally, but he’s got a blind spot when it comes to Ukraine, the Russian stooge and this war.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 9:16 pm to doubleb
quote:Yeah, I’ve noticed that, too. But, he’ll do better. Or, he won’t. He’s still a nice guy.
He is normally, but he’s got a blind spot when it comes to Ukraine, the Russian stooge and this war.
Posted on 6/17/24 at 10:43 pm to LookSquirrel
quote:Sorry, I only just now saw your post.
Would you have a sense of the consensus of the general population, (outside your group), as to whether they had pro, or anti EU, or pro, or anti-Russian alliance leanings. Which were the choices being presented at the time.
The office I worked in in Kiev was about 40% ethnic Russian and 60% ethnic Ukrainian and I never felt any tension between the two “sides.”
It was funny how all of them would switch between speaking Ukrainian, Russian and English…sometimes in the middle of a sentence.
I only picked up a few words of Ukrainian so I preferred they speak in either Russian or English (by God!!) but since I wasn’t their boss I didn’t get a vote on what language they spoke. My sense was even the ethnic Russians of the group leaned towards wanting Ukraine to join Europe rather than attaching itself back to Russia. But I learned early not to question anyone about their politics. I was a guest in their country not an interrogator.
To a person all of them were very nice to me.
Posted on 6/18/24 at 7:07 am to LSURussian
quote:Right. My understanding regarding the "co-national language" is it related mainly to contracts, laws, etc. As I understand it, Russian speakers from Yanukovych's home region had historically gotten screwed vis-a-vis Ukrainian language contracts, Ukrainian clauses they didn't fully understand, etc. Yanukovych wanted to change that.
Yanukovych had campaigned on making Ukraine "neutral' neither favoring NATO nor Russia.
Within days of the election, he flip-flopped and tilted the government towards Moscow, even to the point of proposing that the Russian language be adopted as a "co-national language" along with Ukrainian.
quote:Now THAT is something I'd not heard. If accurate, it would have sealed his political fate in the 2015 election. All the more reason to not risk overthrowing him, and simply let nature run its course.
But the final straw regarding Yanukovych and his favoritism towards Russia was he gave a speech where he basically denied the Holodomor was a genocide.
Your experience in Kyiv is interesting. Especially in the hated Russian language aspect, and, despite that, the way ethnic Russians and Ukrainians got along. Did you ever travel to the Donbas? As I understand it, ethnic relations were far more strained there.
quote:
As Crash Davis told the pitching coach in Bull Durham in a meeting of the infielders on the mound in a game, "There's a lot of shite going on here..."
Posted on 6/18/24 at 7:08 am to doubleb
quote:Weird post brother.
Come on man, you’re ruining the man’s narrative
Posted on 6/18/24 at 7:35 am to LSURussian
quote:Indeed.
he and I can disagree with each other without either of us being disagreeable.
I'm not sure in this instance we actually disagree about much though. Perhaps just in my view that this war was not inevitable, despite Putin's pathology. From there I view our role in instigating the situation as disgusting. We had/have far more control over our own actions than we do those of others. We need to first own our own mistakes and behavior. That is my focus in these threads. I leave the obvious "Putin is a bad man" stuff to others.
We've known for three decades Putin is a ruthless SOB. Screaming about it in a situation mainly of our own making is goonish. The only counters I forward in that regard are related to folks claiming the man is mentally incapacitated, dumb, or irrational. He isn't. He is dangerous because he's shrewd, calculating, intelligent, and cold. He's a soulless lawyer and PhD. The thought of Putin, and Potatobrain in diplomatic dialogue is chilling.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Folks blaming this wholly on Russia, and excusing Western input, have not learned a thing.
This post was edited on 6/18/24 at 7:47 am
Posted on 6/18/24 at 8:20 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Is this a mind penalty? Blood on my hands for thinking something? You're silly!
You seem perfectly fine with US aggression toward other countries.
You should join the military and get actual blood in your hands instead of demanding others do it for you.
Posted on 6/18/24 at 9:04 am to NC_Tigah
Interesting article from American Thinker, this morning. I'll provide a couple of quotes but, the whole article provides some interesting hind sight. That includes the "Chicken speech" from HW Bush in 1991 and the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997, which Ukraine terminated in 2019.
LINK
From the article titled;
Ukraine’s Suicidal Nationalism
AT
LINK
From the article titled;
Ukraine’s Suicidal Nationalism
quote:
On August 24, 1991, Ukraine, driven by “suicidal nationalism,” seized the opportunity presented by the impending collapse of the Soviet Union to proclaim its independence. Once the excitement and promises of democracy and prosperity faded, the Ukrainian people, who had never experienced self-governance, were confronted with the harsh realities of governing a nation. Subsequently, despite impressive resources, Ukraine failed economically and politically.
quote:
After the chaotic collapse of the Soviet Union, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, where most residents were Russians, fell under Ukrainian jurisdiction. The sentiments towards Russia in these regions, varying from acknowledging Russian as an official language to seeking complete autonomy from Ukraine, have been ingrained in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. These emotions were further solidified by the removal of Ukraine's pro-Moscow, democratically elected president Yanukovych in a coup d'état that the United States sponsored in 2014.
AT
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