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re: Trump's Tariffs Are Across The Board "Tax" Hikes

Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:15 am to
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
123921 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:15 am to
quote:

Trump's Tariffs Are Across The Board "Tax" Hikes
quote:

As I've tried to explain to IBF, the problem is generic economists tend to blindly fall back on assumptions they are taught. In this instance, they are applying by rote classical 19th century tariff insights to a 21st century concept.

By rote they say if China exports a $100 widget, and the US applies a 10% tariff, US consumers will pay $110 for the widget. Hence, US consumers as taxed $10 dollars which the government collects. That is the classic teaching.

However, unlike the 19th century, economies are now based on fiat currency, not commodity-based money such as the gold standard or bimetallism. So in the 21st century $100 widget example, China can counter the tariff by unilaterally devaluing its currency 10%. So the classical model no longer necessarily holds.

If China devalues its currency by 10%, it concomitantly lowers cost of its exports. Now China exports its $100 widget for $90. The US applies its 10% tariff ($9). US consumers pay $99 for the previously $100 widget, while the US collects $9 dollars in tax on it.

Meanwhile folks like IBF bitch that the consumer is paying $9 more than he should because of the tariff/tax. In reality though, consumers would never get to buy the widget for $90, because as soon as the tariff was eliminated, China would revalue its currency to the original level, and the widget would return to its $100 price.

Which of course raises the question, if the consumer is paying $99 and the US government is collecting $9 of that in tariff money (so far this year we've collected about $35 billion in tariffs), who is paying for the tariffs? The consumer isn't paying more for the widget. Yet the US government has collected billions in tariffs.

Who is paying?
quote:

China pays a huge cost in currency devaluation. E.g., their exports to the EU and Asia are concomitantly devalued. China is in a bind and probably cannot afford to drop the RMB further. That was one consideration in the decision to delay adding September tariffs. Those would have been transmitted to US consumers per the classic economics model.

This post was edited on 8/23/19 at 9:18 am
Posted by aTmTexas Dillo
East Texas Lake
Member since Sep 2018
15076 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:19 am to
quote:

Trump's Tariffs Are Across The Board "Tax" Hikes


So? We have to deal with the Chinese. They are lying, cheating bastads. I attended a conference once where new technology was discussed. You could listen but not record or use photography. The lights went out and the PowerPoint came up on screen and out popped a camera from the Chinese guy sitting next to me. I turned towards him and pointed to him with my big, fat crooked American finger told him to put that shite up. He did.
Posted by The Pirate King
Pangu
Member since May 2014
57690 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:22 am to
For being in the middle of a trade war, I’ve seen no noticeable difference in anything I’m buying.
Posted by MrLarson
Member since Oct 2014
34984 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:27 am to
quote:

I’ve seen no noticeable difference in anything I’m buying.


You won't see big price jumps. We are still ordering from China because what we purchase still isn't being produced in the US(yet). The Chinese are covering 1/2 the tariffs and have dropped their prices to make it about a 7%-8% increase on COGS. We are eating part of the increase and have only upped our prices about 4%-5%.

The Chinese need us way more than we need them. It is still going to take years before we get back into manufacturing full on(if we can)
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
49289 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:28 am to
quote:

China is in a bind and probably cannot afford to drop the RMB further. That was one consideration in the decision to delay adding September tariffs. Those would have been transmitted to US consumers per the classic economics model.


It also depends on the supplier relationship. One I am familiar with has a container scheduled to arrive Sept 2, just after the tariff was to go into effect. The product is already paid for so the importer would have to pay the tariff to get it released from the Port.

There was a lot of talk on forums about how great the importer is as the retail price didn't go up the full 10%, but rather 5 to 7%. A few others along with myself pointed out the tariff is on the price the importer pays, not the retail price.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11102 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:29 am to
quote:

We have to except the fact that somethings aren't free. China is an existential threat to the long term survival of this country.


Only the old dawg Democrats (like Schumer) understand this and unfortunately. Any Dem presidential candidate will bend the knee to Xi because they are controlled by Wall Street and Silicon Valley money. They do not care about the cruelty of the CCP or the risks for the U.S. moving forward isolating ourselves from China's spreading influence in global economies. They are more concerned about the greasing their alternative energy cronies and writing checks to people with our tax dollars.
Posted by Aubie Spr96
lolwut?
Member since Dec 2009
41125 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:30 am to
quote:

Choosing American businesses over Chinese businesses is not picking winners and losers, it is giving our businesses a competitive edge in the market. Thus employing Americans instead of the Chinese.



This is not what is happening. The federal gov't is artificially inflating the cost of Chinese goods. Thus, inserting themselves into the economy and picking winners and losers. Tariffs are taxes.

And to the previous poster, YES, America was founded off of tariffs. In fact, tariffs are one of the principal reasons for the American revolution.
Posted by WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
44071 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:34 am to
quote:

Trade creates wealth.

You're such a 20th Century conservative.

Get with the times, modern conservatives are into protectionism, government manipulation of markets, and running huge budget deficits during economic expansion.
Posted by MrLarson
Member since Oct 2014
34984 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:34 am to
quote:

The product is already paid for so the importer would have to pay the tariff to get it released from the Port.


Not totally true.

The Chinese have been giving guarantees of ordered by dates that they will cover any tariffs if they kick in. Now Joe Blow ordering 1 - 2 containers a year is probably hung out to dry on this but people with long relationships with future orders aren't going to be footing the bill on new tariffs.

We just got 3 containers and have 2 on the water and 2 in production. They aren't going to risk that.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
123921 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:34 am to
quote:

There was a lot of talk on forums about how great the importer is as the retail price didn't go up the full 10%, but rather 5 to 7%. A few others along with myself pointed out the tariff is on the price the importer pays, not the retail price.

Walmart's latest earnings would speak well to that.
Posted by whocares1
Member since Jun 2019
308 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:39 am to
quote:

Please list all products we use daily that have gone up and by how much


Not arguing for or against tariffs, but prices have gone up due to the tariffs.
IT equipment from all major vendors have increased from around 3 to 25%
Home building materials have increased 3-5%
Posted by MrLarson
Member since Oct 2014
34984 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:39 am to
quote:

The federal gov't is artificially inflating the cost of Chinese goods.


And the communist government is decreasing the price of their goods. They are eating it and the American people aren't.
Posted by Tiger in Texas
Houston, Texas
Member since Sep 2004
20874 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:40 am to
I am willing to pay more for American made goods. Short term, America may feel a small pinch, but I guarantee you China is concerned! Another 4 years of Trump and China will start to see American companies pulling out...
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
49289 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:41 am to
quote:

Now Joe Blow ordering 1 - 2 containers a year is probably hung out to dry o


This is closer to the importer I am talking about. One in the business is crowing about how after 14 years in business they have their first full 40' container coming.

These are small, rather pricey, hobby products so not a large volume. To add, the importer is paying for injection molds up front as I understand and these projects can take over a year to yield finished product, so they are kinda stuck.

Have said for years they need to get out of China but 90% of the importers use a small number of niche suppliers.
Posted by Jjdoc
Cali
Member since Mar 2016
53472 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:42 am to
quote:

So far the only response the low iq have giving me is that washing machines are up 60


Yeah... I proved that wrong the other day.

You can still get a brand new HE Washing Machine for $398.... that is 1 dollar CHEAPER than 2015 models at Lowes
Posted by SDVTiger
Cabo San Lucas
Member since Nov 2011
73690 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:44 am to
quote:

but prices have gone up due to the tariffs.


What daily products that average joe uses have gone up

Please list them and list how much
Posted by SDVTiger
Cabo San Lucas
Member since Nov 2011
73690 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:44 am to
quote:

You can still get a brand new HE Washing Machine for $398.... that is 1 dollar CHEAPER than 2015 models at Lowes


Lol poor want brigade. This was there big win
Posted by OchoDedos
Republic of Texas
Member since Oct 2014
34086 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:46 am to
"Who's the greater threat... Jay Powell or Chairman Xi"

paraphrasing latest Trump tweet
Posted by LSUTIGER in TEXAS
Member since Jan 2008
13609 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:54 am to
quote:

We have to except the fact that somethings aren't free. China is an existential threat to the long term survival of this country. China has employed surreptitious means to undermine the US for decades. DJT is the first President to ever put his foot down.
A. fricking. Men.

It’s a small inconvenience now to crush the chicoms, or we can kick the can down the road to our kids and let them fight an out of control monster. It’s an obvious choice if you don’t have TDS
Posted by gthog61
Irving, TX
Member since Nov 2009
71001 posts
Posted on 8/23/19 at 9:55 am to
Woohoo

We can tax Chinese people, a lot more of them
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