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Thoughts on the Movie, Oppenheimer

Posted on 7/24/23 at 5:54 pm
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
17269 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 5:54 pm
1- First and foremost. Go to see it. In fact, it's so good I may go to see it again.

2- Do not buy the left wing bullshite that the movie is somehow illustrating that we dropped the bomb only bc we had spent so much money and Japan was about to surrender anyway. The bomb was the only reason Japan surrendered and WWII ended. The only insinuation the movie makes about this surrender point was that the Deep State put out a narrative that Oppenheimer insisted we drop it out of hubris.

3- The point of the movie is WTF hath we wrought by building this bomb. Ultimately, the arch of the story is that the Deep State persecuted Oppenheimer bc he was politically vocal that we shouldn't build the H-Bomb bc it was way more dangerous. There are so many things that science and its progress could lead to that are a pandora's box (ex AI), that ethics in science are a MUST. And that issue is fascinating.

4- It is ironic that the leftwinger morons are arguing point 2, since the movie essentially can be interpretted as turning Oppenheimer into some left wing martyr of McCarthyism. Despite this, it has many and deeper points about the Deep State and its origins, along with the dangers of hubris with scientists and combining it with government which can be traced directly to the Manhattan Project.

5 - I have no idea whether Oppenheimer was a communist or just hung out with them bc academia is infested with them anyway. I don't buy any Hollywood interpretation that he was not a commie, bc again, Hollywood is infested with morons who think that being a communist is the epitome of virtue. The movie takes great pains to show that Oppenheimer was not a communist, even though he knew some communists. That said, I do believe he was loyal to his country and did not share any nuclear secrets with the USSR (as concluded by the Deep State itself at some point). There were other actual communists on the Manhattan Project approved by the goverment despite their communism - and so frick the MIC. We should have never given them security clearances, or let them be on the Manhattan Project.

6 - The origin of the Deep State was what they did to Oppenheimer.

7 - The movie is a study in the dangers of making scientists part of the government bc ultimately these scientists have to become politicians to survive. In light of recent events (cough Fauci and DOD research related to bioweapons), this is particularly compelling.

8- I should have never gone to see this movie bc I'm currently reading Dr. Mary's Monkey.

9- The Deep State will flat out wreck the life of any scientist who they find to be no longer useful, with zero consequences.

10- The Deep State needs to be obliterrated. Torn out Root and Branch.

ETA - Edited to fix numbering. But otherwise, please discuss.
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 5:55 pm
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 5:56 pm to
quote:

2- Do not buy the left wing bullshite that the movie is somehow illustrating that we dropped the bomb only bc we had spent so much money and Japan was about to surrender anyway. The bomb was the only reason Japan surrendered and WWII ended. T


The Japanese offered surrender an almost identical terms two months prior to the bombings.
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
17269 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:04 pm to
Posted by LSUvet72
Member since Sep 2013
13103 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:05 pm to
After you read Dr. Mary’s Money please read the book by Lee Harvey Oswald’s mistress named Lee and Me.

The author of Lee and Me was a brillent Fla.high school scholar who was promised a medical school education to do science experiments into cancer and was sucked up into a CIA plot to kill Castro of Cuba.

Don’t have time to tell you anymore but the women went into hiding from the government cause she knew too much about how Oswald was framed.
Posted by Fun Bunch
New Orleans
Member since May 2008
130098 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:10 pm to
The juxtaposition in one scene between the theory of black holes and a discussion of communism was pretty interesting. And the way his wife talked about why she turned against communism was really effective.

One of the better movies I have seen in a theater. It has stuck with me for days.
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:10 pm to
quote:

Wednesday


What is it about historical fact that bothers you? It's ok to be in favor of the bombings. It's just incorrect to say the Japanese wouldn't have surrendered if we hadn't dropped them when they offered surrender prior to knowing that they existed
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
17269 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:13 pm to
Interesting that they didn’t just surrender instead of offering on terms
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:14 pm to
quote:

Interesting that they didn’t just surrender instead of offering on terms


They didn't just surrender after the bombs. They offered terms.
Posted by Fun Bunch
New Orleans
Member since May 2008
130098 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:14 pm to
quote:

What is it about historical fact that bothers you?


It’s not a historical fact though. There are quite a few that dispute it.
Posted by SeeeeK
some where
Member since Sep 2012
30763 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:16 pm to
quote:

The Japanese offered surrender an almost identical terms two months prior to the bombings.



Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:17 pm to
quote:

SeeeeK



What is funny about that statement?

What additional terms were added to their accepted terms in August?
Posted by Rohan Gravy
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2017
20728 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:21 pm to

10- The Deep State needs to be obliterrated. Torn out Root and Branch.



For me this is the only thing that matters now
Posted by Dixie Normus
Earth
Member since Sep 2013
2868 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:21 pm to
LINK

Link is from US Dept of Energy. There was never a formal offer of surrender. The only information the US had was Japan engaging Russia for a negotiated peace that involved them keeping much of their wartime conquests. But, Russia didn’t even begin those talks before they declared war against Japan.

You are incorrect.
Posted by HubbaBubba
North of DFW, TX
Member since Oct 2010
51706 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:25 pm to
quote:

joshnorris14
quote:

The Japanese offered surrender an almost identical terms two months prior to the bombings.
bullshite. Read some history.

Did the Japanese offer to surrender before Hiroshima?
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:25 pm to
quote:

The only information the US had was Japan engaging Russia for a negotiated peace that involved them keeping much of their wartime conquests.


This is inaccurate

quote:

Marquis Kido, Hirohito’s principal adviser, presented to him a memorandum proposing a path to peace in June 1945. Rejecting any direct approach to the United States, Kido urged a negotiated settlement achieved by Soviet mediation. As for settlement terms, Kido’s conjured up a copy of the Treaty of Versailles. Japan might have to give up her overseas conquests and endure a period of disarmament. But there would be no occupation of Japanese soil, thus assuring continuance of the imperial system and Hirohito’s seat on the throne. In view of Germany’s renewed war after the Treaty of Versailles, there is zero chance US leaders would have accepted that framework to end the war.


LINK

Posted by sta4ever
Member since Aug 2014
17642 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:27 pm to
I don’t understand why people even GAF about what the left says about dropping the bombs on Japan. frick them. The only way the bombings were wrong, was by improperly using them. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have dropped the first bomb on Tokyo, then the second one on Moscow. That’s the only way the dropping of the Atomic Bombs was wrong.
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:27 pm to
quote:

bullshite. Read some history.


From your link:

quote:

Furthermore, the surrender that the “peace party” was contemplating was still miles away from the “unconditional surrender” demanded by the United States. There were conditions involved: mainly the preservation of the status and safety of the Emperor and the Imperial House, which they regarded as identical to the preservation of the Japanese nation.


Do you know when Hirohito stepped down as Emperor? When he died in 1989.
Posted by HubbaBubba
North of DFW, TX
Member since Oct 2010
51706 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:30 pm to
You left out...

quote:

Japan was being governed at this point by a Supreme War Council, which was dominated by militarists who had no interest in peace. The “peace party” behind these feelers was a small minority of officials who were keeping their efforts secret from the rest of the Council, because they clearly feared they would be squashed
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 6:31 pm
Posted by Dixie Normus
Earth
Member since Sep 2013
2868 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:31 pm to
quote:

Based on Kido’s memorandum, the emperor met with the inner cabinet, termed the Big Six for its membership. He secured their agreement to approach the Soviets. As noted in another part of this series, this effort remained stillborn. Prior to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Hirohito failed to intervene as the Soviet mediation effort went nowhere.


Unsurprising that you left off the next two paragraphs of the article you cited. Soviet mediation effort went nowhere due to inaction by the emporer.

Take the L baw.
Posted by joshnorris14
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
46931 posts
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:32 pm to
quote:

HubbaBubba


Do you mind viewing this from a critical lens? What changed before August 6th and after August 9th?

The conditions which the US would accept from Japanese surrender. In June, the US was demanding unconditional surrender, but in August, after the bombs were dropped, the US accepted a conditional surrender.
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 6:33 pm
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