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Started By
Message
re: This isn’t a great look for the pentagon. They appear to claim Mormons aren’t Christians
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:37 am to monsterballads
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:37 am to monsterballads
quote:
can we get this thread back on subject of mormons being in no way christian
There isn’t a monopoly on the term “Christian”. If you went to Asia Minor or Syria in the second and third centuries and went to a Christian church, you’d have been attending mass with Christians who believed the Jewish god was evil and not Jesus’ father. Mormons are still closer to Catholics and Baptists today than any of those were to the Marcionites and Valentinians of the 2nd through 5th centuries.
If Mormons aren’t Christians, you’d have to say the apostle Paul wasn’t Christian because he didn’t believe Jesus had ever been a man on earth and believed the coming of Jesus was a future event. You’d also have to say that Papias, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ireneaus, Arius, and Origen… all influential church fathers were not Christians because they didn’t believe in the holy trinity (or the version of co equal and co eternal persons) or that Jesus could be fully man and fully god (hypostatic union).
Technically, even Muslims could be Christians as their Quran says that “the gospel” is the Truth and divinely inspired and Jesus was the second greatest prophet and was the messiah who paved the way for Muhammad.
Just because the Muslims didn’t consider Jesus to be divine doesn’t mean they aren’t Christians. The Ebionites - Christians in the 2nd to 5th centuries - kept the Jewish law (the Torah restrictions), used a version of the gospel of Matthew, and didn’t believe Jesus to be divine. But they called themselves Christians.
2
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:40 am to Squirrelmeister
Words have meanings shaped by history and usage.
"Christian" historically means adherence to the faith centered on the incarnate, crucified, risen Son of the one God, as summarized in creeds like the Apostles' and Nicene, with the Bible as sufficient Scripture.
Groups can self-identify however they want, but that doesn't rewrite theology or history. Mormons have genuine differences: nature of God (eternal spirit vs. exalted man), plurality of gods, ongoing revelation, salvation mechanics (faith + works + ordinances + potential exaltation), etc.
These aren't minor variations like baptism modes between Baptists and Presbyterians. They're foundational.
People can admire Mormon ethics, community, or family values without pretending it's the same religion.
Truth-seeking means acknowledging real divergences rather than blurring lines for politeness.
Early church leaders didn't hesitate to call out distortions—they saw the stakes as eternal.
"Christian" historically means adherence to the faith centered on the incarnate, crucified, risen Son of the one God, as summarized in creeds like the Apostles' and Nicene, with the Bible as sufficient Scripture.
Groups can self-identify however they want, but that doesn't rewrite theology or history. Mormons have genuine differences: nature of God (eternal spirit vs. exalted man), plurality of gods, ongoing revelation, salvation mechanics (faith + works + ordinances + potential exaltation), etc.
These aren't minor variations like baptism modes between Baptists and Presbyterians. They're foundational.
People can admire Mormon ethics, community, or family values without pretending it's the same religion.
Truth-seeking means acknowledging real divergences rather than blurring lines for politeness.
Early church leaders didn't hesitate to call out distortions—they saw the stakes as eternal.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:45 am to monsterballads
quote:
"Christian" historically means adherence to the faith centered on the incarnate, crucified, risen Son of the one God, as summarized in creeds like the Apostles' and Nicene, with the Bible as sufficient Scripture.
Sure, sort of. What you’re describing is a process kicked off in the late 4th century and standardized across the Roman Empire in the very late 4th to early 5th century.
There are Christians before the 4th century. Definitely in the 1st to 3rd centuries, and maybe even 1st century BC. They called themselves Christian and those groups’ beliefs were more diverse than Mormon / JW / Catholic / Baptist / Presbyterian / Pentecostal.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:49 am to Squirrelmeister
Mormons self-identify as Christians and center Jesus in their worship.
They see themselves as restored primitive Christianity. Many are morally upright people with strong families. But self-identification and shared vocabulary do not override incompatible doctrines about who God is.
Sharing the label "Christian" while redefining its foundational claims (as with the examples you raised earlier) stretches the term beyond recognition
They see themselves as restored primitive Christianity. Many are morally upright people with strong families. But self-identification and shared vocabulary do not override incompatible doctrines about who God is.
Sharing the label "Christian" while redefining its foundational claims (as with the examples you raised earlier) stretches the term beyond recognition
Posted on 6/11/26 at 9:56 am to monsterballads
Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all humans, the "firstborn" in a pre-mortal spirit existence.
He is a god (Jehovah) but not the eternal, unique God.
Salvation involves faith, works, ordinances (including temple rites), and potential exaltation.
Mainstream views emphasize justification by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 1).
LDS teaches a works-enhanced plan with multiple levels of heaven, proxy baptisms for the dead, and exaltation to godhood.
It's a kooky magical bastardized version of "christianity" developed by a pedofile conman.
Mormons believe that God was once a man who progressed to godhood on another world.
There are multiple gods (or potential for them). Humans who achieve exaltation can become gods, create spirit children, and rule their own worlds.
This is tied to "eternal progression."
All humans existed as spirit intelligences before birth in a "pre-mortal life" with Heavenly Father and Mother.
A council in heaven planned the earth; Jesus (not Lucifer) was chosen as Savior.
Exaltation: Faithful members can become like God—gods with eternal families, spirit offspring, and creative power.
Salvation has degrees of glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial); most people are saved in some kingdom.
The Book of Mormon is a literal historical record of ancient Israelites who migrated to the Americas 600 BC, with wars, prophets, and a visit by the resurrected Jesus.
It was translated from golden plates via the Urim and Thummim (and a seer stone in a hat).
Additional scriptures: Doctrine and Covenants (modern revelations), Pearl of Great Price (including the Book of Abraham, translated from Egyptian papyri).
Ongoing revelation through living prophets, who can receive new doctrine. The church was restored after a "Great Apostasy" corrupted earlier Christianity.
Baptism for the dead (proxy ordinances in temples) so ancestors can accept the gospel in the spirit world.
Endowment ceremonies: Sacred temple rituals involving covenants, symbolic clothing (temple garments worn daily under clothes), and washing/anointing. These were influenced by Freemasonry in presentation.
Celestial marriage (eternal families sealed in temples).
No original sin: Humans are not born totally depraved; Adam's fall was necessary for progress ("fortunate fall"). People are punished for their own sins.
Word of Wisdom: Health code prohibiting alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, and illegal drugs (revealed as modern commandment).
Historical practices: Polygamy (plural marriage) commanded by God in the 19th century, practiced until 1890 (officially discontinued; some fundamentalist splinter groups continue it).
Past teachings on race: Black members barred from priesthood/temple until 1978 (now fully reversed and disavowed as past folklore).
Kolob: A star/planet near God's throne mentioned in the Book of Abraham.
He is a god (Jehovah) but not the eternal, unique God.
Salvation involves faith, works, ordinances (including temple rites), and potential exaltation.
Mainstream views emphasize justification by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 1).
LDS teaches a works-enhanced plan with multiple levels of heaven, proxy baptisms for the dead, and exaltation to godhood.
It's a kooky magical bastardized version of "christianity" developed by a pedofile conman.
Mormons believe that God was once a man who progressed to godhood on another world.
There are multiple gods (or potential for them). Humans who achieve exaltation can become gods, create spirit children, and rule their own worlds.
This is tied to "eternal progression."
All humans existed as spirit intelligences before birth in a "pre-mortal life" with Heavenly Father and Mother.
A council in heaven planned the earth; Jesus (not Lucifer) was chosen as Savior.
Exaltation: Faithful members can become like God—gods with eternal families, spirit offspring, and creative power.
Salvation has degrees of glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial); most people are saved in some kingdom.
The Book of Mormon is a literal historical record of ancient Israelites who migrated to the Americas 600 BC, with wars, prophets, and a visit by the resurrected Jesus.
It was translated from golden plates via the Urim and Thummim (and a seer stone in a hat).
Additional scriptures: Doctrine and Covenants (modern revelations), Pearl of Great Price (including the Book of Abraham, translated from Egyptian papyri).
Ongoing revelation through living prophets, who can receive new doctrine. The church was restored after a "Great Apostasy" corrupted earlier Christianity.
Baptism for the dead (proxy ordinances in temples) so ancestors can accept the gospel in the spirit world.
Endowment ceremonies: Sacred temple rituals involving covenants, symbolic clothing (temple garments worn daily under clothes), and washing/anointing. These were influenced by Freemasonry in presentation.
Celestial marriage (eternal families sealed in temples).
No original sin: Humans are not born totally depraved; Adam's fall was necessary for progress ("fortunate fall"). People are punished for their own sins.
Word of Wisdom: Health code prohibiting alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, and illegal drugs (revealed as modern commandment).
Historical practices: Polygamy (plural marriage) commanded by God in the 19th century, practiced until 1890 (officially discontinued; some fundamentalist splinter groups continue it).
Past teachings on race: Black members barred from priesthood/temple until 1978 (now fully reversed and disavowed as past folklore).
Kolob: A star/planet near God's throne mentioned in the Book of Abraham.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 12:06 pm to monsterballads
quote:
Sharing the label "Christian" while redefining its foundational claims (as with the examples you raised earlier) stretches the term beyond recognition
You’re committing the “No true Scotsman” fallacy by attempting to redefine “Christian” to whatever you want it to be to exclude the Mormons who follow Jesus Christ from membership in your newly defined group.
quote:
Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all humans, the "firstborn" in a pre-mortal spirit existence.
Pretty funny eh? Most Christians don’t realize the Lucificer from the book of Isaiah was a trash talk towards the Babylonian king that was a metaphor based on Helel Ben Shahar (shining one son of the Dawn god) of Canaanite mythology.
quote:
Salvation involves faith, works
Most of Christianity professes the importance of works for salvation, unless you want to exclude Catholics and orthodox with more no true Scotsman fallacious arguments, there thereby making “Christianity” a tiny minority religion.
quote:
LDS teaches a works-enhanced plan with multiple levels of heaven
Well the Bible along with other Jewish scriptures like 1 Enoch and more teaches that as well. Paul himself says he went up to the third heaven.
quote:
proxy baptisms for the dead
They are just following 1 Corinthians 15:29
quote:
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
quote:
It's a kooky magical bastardized version of "christianity" developed by a pedofile conman.
Yeah so what? All of Christianity is kooky and filled with pedophiles.
quote:
There are multiple gods (or potential for them)
Maybe you should read Psalms 82 and 89. Might be eye-opening for you.
quote:
All humans existed as spirit intelligences before birth in a "pre-mortal life"
You should check out Jeremiah 1:5.
quote:
The Book of Mormon is a literal historical record of ancient Israelites who migrated to the Americas 600 BC, with wars, prophets, and a visit by the resurrected Jesus.
And horses! The Nephites and Lamanites had horses in North America 2000 years before the Europeans brought them over on Columbus’ ships.
quote:
It was translated from golden plates via the Urim and Thummim (and a seer stone in a hat).
I learned this from South Park.
quote:
Historical practices: Polygamy (plural marriage) commanded by God in the 19th century, practiced until 1890 (officially discontinued; some fundamentalist splinter groups continue it).
How many wives did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David have? Those are supposed to be “good” guys.
quote:
Kolob: A star/planet near God's throne mentioned in the Book of Abraham.
Do you know the story of that one? Joseph Smith acquired some mummies and shite, and he said he translated the Book of Abraham in some of the mummified papyri. He did that “translation” before they had decoded Egyptian hieroglyphics using the Rosetta Stone. Turns out that book of Abraham was some Egyptian funeral documents, and had nothing to do with Abraham. Joseph Smith was a charlatan, but those people are still Christian.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 12:22 pm to jrobic4
Not Christians and are a cult like the Mormons.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 5:29 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Do you understand now?
Of course I understand, you are acting like a child who puts his hands in front of his face and says nooo you cant see me.
Everyone can see you, you've been preaching Jehovah's Witnesses theology for a long time now.
You continue to door knock, its your religious service.
You and your people are terrible liars.
quote:
Pretty funny eh? Most Christians don’t realize the Lucificer from the book of Isaiah was a trash talk towards the Babylonian king that was a metaphor based on Helel Ben Shahar (shining one son of the Dawn god) of Canaanite mythology.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=%28Is.+14%3A13%29&r=occ&p=par&st=g&pg=2
Satan (?1 occurrence)
quote:
This “king,” that is, the dynasty of Babylon, ‘lifted himself up’ in his own heart and was in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers a “shining one,” a “son of the dawn.” (In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lel', “shining one.” Heh·lel' is not a name or a title but, rather, a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar.) (Isa 14:4-21)
Again, you are going to lie your tail off while spreading non stop JW bullshite.
Anyone that falls for your shtick has only themselves to blame.
This post was edited on 6/11/26 at 7:47 pm
Posted on 6/11/26 at 6:41 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
I don’t actually believe the Israelites witnessed Yahweh raining down plagues on Egypt.
Why don't you just call him Jesus Christ...that's his name...not yahweh.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 10:27 pm to Narax
quote:
LINK Satan (?1 occurrence) quote: This “king,” that is, the dynasty of Babylon, ‘lifted himself up’ in his own heart and was in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers a “shining one,” a “son of the dawn.” (In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lel', “shining one.” Heh·lel' is not a name or a title but, rather, a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar.) (Isa 14:4-21) Again, you are going to lie your tail off while spreading non stop JW bullshite
Awesome
The JW thing you linked is still wrong, but it’s actually better than most Christian apologist commentaries on the subject.
Here’s the real historical reality. The Bronze Age Canaanites (from which the Israelites were descended) had a library of cultural and religious documents in what is now Ras Shamra, Syria, but in ancient times was called Ugarit. They spoke a language historians call Ugaritic which would have been at least partially intelligible with Hebrew. Archaeologists unearthed the library buried there and found quite a bit of literature there written on clay tablets in cuneiform and in alphabetic script (precursor to Phonecian and biblical Hebrew scripts).
It was there that they found the story which makes sense out of Isaiah 14. Here’s how it goes. In their pantheon, they had El Elyon (of Deuteronomy 32:8 and Genesis 14 fame) which was the father deity, and they had his firstborn son Ba’al, who they also called Yah, and they had a bunch of other deities. They had Shahar (the god of the dawn, of the rising sun) and Shalim (the god of the dusk, of the setting sun, which is the namesake of the holy city Yerushalim which meant foundation of Shalim). All these deities I mentioned are in the bible. The son of Shahar… Helel… is also in the Bible in Isaiah 14.
On one of the clay tablets at Ugarit, they found a mythical tale. In this tale, Helel thinks he is a badass, and he wanted to rule the cosmos, and set himself his own thrown on Mount Zaphon (incorrectly translated as “the north” in most bibles… Mount Zaphon was the home of the Ugaritic deities like Mount Zion was the home of the later Yahweh cult head deity… in fact Zaphon and Zion are cognates) and usurp El to become the new high god… Helel Elyon I guess would have been his title. But Helel hit his arse kicked and was cast down out of the highest heavens to the lowest.
The author of Isaiah 14 doesn’t feel the need to explain any of that to the reader. The author simply assumes the reader is familiar with that Canaanite myth. He uses allegory to compare the Babylonian king to Helel be Shahar, who was also unsuccessful at becoming the supreme leader of the earth, as the Babylonian king got his arse kicked by the Persians.
Helel means bright one or shining one. In Greek, it’s translated as Phosphorous. In Latin, it’s Lucifer, from the Latin word for light - “lux” - which is the SI unit for illuminance (directly converts to foot-candles).
Anyone who thinks Lucifer / Helel is a/the Satan is misinformed or ignorant. I’m not going to link you to any scholarly materials. You can look it up yourself, because you’re a pile of shite.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 10:31 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
because you’re a pile of shite.
When you get it handed to you on here, you call people names. That’s how I know you’ve lost this ridiculous argument.
Posted on 6/11/26 at 11:04 pm to monsterballads
quote:
When you get it handed to you on here, you call people names. That’s how I know you’ve lost this ridiculous argument.
He’s a pile of shite. I call it like I see it. Sounds like you need to read a book too, like maybe The Myth of Cosmic Rebellion: A Study of Its Reflexes in Ugaritic and Biblical Literature by Hugh Rowland Page.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 12:01 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
you’re a pile of shite.
Yea its obvious that by this point you know you can't lie your way out of this.
You are caught.
Its such a cult that worms its way into your brain that you constantly think in their logic, your assumptions are so deeply baked into you, you are going to continue to argue from that world view.
A world view that is disturbing and distinctively Jehovah's Witness.
You can lie all you want.
You can't change your stripes.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 1:02 am to Narax
quote:quote:Yea its obvious that by this point you know you can't lie your way out of this. You are caught.
you’re a pile of shite.
So my detailed explanation of Helel Ben Shahar wins. You have no legitimate response. And I continue to apply the principles of Matthew 7:12.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 1:25 am to Ailsa
quote:quote:Why don't you just call him Jesus Christ...that's his name...not yahweh.
I don’t actually believe the Israelites witnessed Yahweh raining down plagues on Egypt.
Because when he was raining plagues, his name was YHWH - the Tetragrammaton. Most likely pronounced Yahweh. And according to Paul, he only earned the name Jesus after his death and resurrection. He had not yet died/resurrected when he was massively killing Egyptians and Israelites alike in Egypt and the Sinai.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 7:53 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
So my detailed explanation
Dude you and your weird occult shite is ridiculous.
You somehow think that by babbling in further and pulling in a weird afro-centric woke black guy means that people should ignore your years of JW posting?
Ridiculous.
You are a warning for mental illness.
quote:
You have no legitimate response.
You must have been spoiled as a child due to your autism. I don't mean that as an insult.
I've made a single point, your words have only further confirmed that point.
I showed how repeatedly you speak like a Jehovah's Witness, praise Jehovah's Witness, think like a Jehovah's Witness, and use the exact same theological phrasing as Jehovah's Witness.
Who are you trying to fool at this point.
You walk like a duck, look like a duck and sound like a duck.
You are a duck.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 7:56 am to Narax
quote:
Narax
Why are you harping on Squirrelmeister supposedly being a JW. He’s obviously not.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 9:11 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Because when he was raining plagues, his name was YHWH - the Tetragrammaton. Most likely pronounced Yahweh. And according to Paul, he only earned the name Jesus after his death and resurrection. He had not yet died/resurrected when he was massively killing Egyptians and Israelites alike in Egypt and the Sinai.
He never did any of that and his name was always Jesus as the angel told Mary to name him.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 9:12 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Why are you harping on Squirrelmeister supposedly being a JW. He’s obviously not.
I appreciate you defending your friend.
You obviously couldn't care less about the truth.
Posted on 6/12/26 at 9:41 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Narax
All he’s capable of is ad hominems and red herrings. He’s a true ostrich sticking his head in the sand.
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