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Message
re: There are a lot of "conservatives" who want to end the MAGA/America First Populism.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:01 am to VolSquatch
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:01 am to VolSquatch
quote:
nstead of these "real conservatives" adjusting their priors and saying "maybe we need to move more in the MAGA direction and find a common ground." they want MAGA/America First/Populist Conservatives to move toward them. That single lane on a narrow road thinking has to be rejected.
Perfectly said
0
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:11 am to VolSquatch
quote:
Purity tests are a road to no where. I don't expect people to agree with me on everything. I have a couple of more liberal positions, but I'm largely conservative on most issues. The point is to get people together who agree on some basic points and then hash out who/what you want to support at a given level of government from there.
Instead of these "real conservatives" adjusting their priors and saying "maybe we need to move more in the MAGA direction and find a common ground." they want MAGA/America First/Populist Conservatives to move toward them. That single lane on a narrow road thinking has to be rejected.
You sound—at first—like you're being reasonable—the implication being a sort of "Can't we all get along?" narrative that acts like it wants to see tolerance for the differing application of foundational principles.
The problem with all of that is that populism isn't informed by any foundational principles. Literally none. As someone upthread pointed out, BLM is populism.
Differing over foundational principles applied to certain situations in good faith is one thing. Abandoning all principles and being outraged over whatever Alex Jones has stirred up lately is another.
Not to mention, why is actual conservatives expecting populists who have abandoned all principle to move toward them a "single lane on a narrow road that needs to be rejected," but expecting conservatives to ditch their principles so that they can move toward the ideological anarchy of populism not just as much a single lane on a narrow road that needs to be rejected?
Oh, wait, I forgot. Logic is something that populists can't be bothered with.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:14 am to lake chuck fan
quote:
ow can you fault Trump for McCarthy not doing what he promised?
Only dullards thought KM was going to do what he had to tell Gaetz he was going to do. The list was an impossible list.
I don't think Trump is a dullard.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:14 am to MAADFACTS
quote:
MAGA/populism has traditionalist elements, but it’s not “conservative” in that sense. It’s about bringing down the governing order, ripping apart our trade agreements and alliances, and pretty much everything else that’s happened since World War II. It’s a rightwing revolutionary movement. It’s not saying everything is fine. It’s saying everything is intolerable and it’s time to blow it up.
It's not conservatism in any sense.
BLM is populism. That group is saying exactly what you posted above.
So you tell me...what defining characteristic can you name that differentiates BLM from MAGA in the context of this discussion?
Or is BLM just as good an avenue, as long as it tears down the status quo?
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:14 am to Powerman
quote:= lowerchoosemypronoun
Powerman
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:19 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
The problem with all of that is that populism isn't informed by any foundational principles. Literally none. As someone upthread pointed out, BLM is populism.
Sorry to insult, but that's a very simplistic way of thinking.
And there are socialists who are left-libertarians. Political leanings are a spectrum.
There is both right-wing populism and left-wing populism.
Look at Bernie, he was saying a lot of the same things Trump was in 2016 with a different spin. Instead of "the swamp", Bernie Bros had "the 1%" or "the ruling class".
You probably think all socialists support gun control, when there is an org called the Socialist Rifle Association of America because they believe the working class should be armed to protect themselves from abuse from the elites.
There is a lot more nuance than just "how far to the left or right are you?".
quote:
Not to mention, why is actual conservatives expecting populists who have abandoned all principle to move toward them a "single lane on a narrow road that needs to be rejected," but expecting conservatives to ditch their principles so that they can move toward the ideological anarchy of populism not just as much a single lane on a narrow road that needs to be rejected?
"Moving toward the MAGA direction" doesn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'm not expecting these old school conservatives to start acting like a raging lunatic like MTG (or even Trump himself at times).
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:20 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
Or is BLM just as good an avenue, as long as it tears down the status quo?
BLM is all about attacking corruption, just like MAGA.
BLM is all about Leftist economics...just like MAGA.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:20 am to VolSquatch
quote:
There is both right-wing populism and left-wing populism.
And the unifying factor is Leftist economics.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:22 am to Bass Tiger
quote:
There are a lot of "conservatives"
Name 5
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:25 am to DavidTheGnome
Did you read what I was responding to?
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:29 am to VolSquatch
quote:
Sorry to insult, but that's a very simplistic way of thinking.
It's not insulting. Not to me, anyway, as you are wrong.
The whole point of left wing vs right wing is that foundational principles separate the two. Again, no one claimed that there couldn't be differing applications of principles to specific situations...I said specifically the opposite of that. That's not the point.
quote:
Look at Bernie, he was saying a lot of the same things Trump was in 2016 with a different spin.
How do you not understand that that is precisely the point?
THAT'S THE POINT.
Abandoning principles puts you in a position to support anything any which way the wind blows.
quote:
You probably think all socialists support gun control...
Why would I think that? What foundational principle of socialism would that violate?
quote:
There is a lot more nuance than just "how far to the left or right are you?".
Again, there's someone around here who is thinking simplistically, but it's not me. The irony is thick.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:36 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
It's not conservatism in any sense. BLM is populism. That group is saying exactly what you posted above. So you tell me...what defining characteristic can you name that differentiates BLM from MAGA in the context of this discussion? Or is BLM just as good an avenue, as long as it tears down the status quo?
I mean there is a commonality between the MAGA right and the Bernie Sanders left in that both want to fundamentally change the United States whereas the Clinton-Bush segment of voters, thinkers, and politicians at most want to tinker with what we have at most.
But that’s speaking broadly, the difference is what the two groups want to achieve after the status quo has been destroyed. Look at healthcare. A conservative wants the current system but doesn’t want insurance companies to have to cover pre-existing conditions because it drives up costs for everyone else. A liberal Democrat wants to cover pre-existing condition and also mandate that healthy young people have health insurance. A leftwing populists wants to do away with our healthcare system entirely and replace it with a single-payer (government) system, and a populist republicans wants also to do away with our current healthcare system but replace it with a completely free market system where insurance is decoupled from employment and we are all competing with each other for insurance, which would push down the cost and make the insurance companies more responsive.
Or trade? Conservatives are happy with the trade agreements we have because they have grown the economy and made a lot of people very rich. Clinton liberals like the trade agreements for the same reason but make a show of wanting to fund career training for people who have had their jobs offshored. The populist left wants to keep trade open but wants to greatly expand the social safety net so that people who lose their jobs aren’t thrown into chaos (why workers would work at all never seems to occur to them). The populist right feels that free trade is just as disruptive as the populist left (although we are more likely to emphasize the way it’s led to the breakdown in family and community) and want to end free trade and put protective tariffs on imports and rebuild American manufacturing.
It doesn’t matter if two people see the same problem if they have radically different incompatible solutions to that problem
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:38 am to MAADFACTS
quote:
Or trade? Conservatives are happy with the trade agreements we have because they have grown the economy and made a lot of people very rich. Clinton liberals like the trade agreements for the same reason but make a show of wanting to fund career training for people who have had their jobs offshored. The populist left wants to keep trade open but wants to greatly expand the social safety net so that people who lose their jobs aren’t thrown into chaos (why workers would work at all never seems to occur to them). The populist right feels that free trade is just as disruptive as the populist left (although we are more likely to emphasize the way it’s led to the breakdown in family and community) and want to end free trade and put protective tariffs on imports and rebuild American manufacturing.
It doesn’t matter if two people see the same problem if they have radically different incompatible solutions to that problem
Both the populist left and populist right in your examples want economic Leftism and redistributive welfare programs.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:46 am to MAADFACTS
I also think a big thing for conservatives who have made their career speaking for the Republican base is that they deluded themselves into thinking the base agreed with them. Then Trump came along with a platform emphasizing things that were radically different than what they’d been arguing for and won the primary handedly and a lot of them haven’t been able to reconcile themselves to the fact that nobody reads the National Review outside of a few nerds in Washington DC. They never had the base and it drives them crazy because they have to realize that all the support they imagined they had with the public was just imagined.
A similar thing is going on in the Democratic Party. The liberals who’ve been speaking on behalf of their base were astonished with how popular Bernie was in 2016 and 2020. In 2020 they acted as a party to stop him from getting nomination. Biden, as bad as he is, is the party doing all it can to hold onto a base that hits its own leadership. I feel like we are in the process of MAGA getting control of the Republican Party, and the Democrat party is behind us in their populists taking control of the party. Talk to any Republican under 25 and they are all MAGA. Talk to any democrat under 25 and they will call themselves socialist. By 2050 we wil think of a nationalist Republican Party and an openly socialist democrat party as normal, and the broadly free market consensus that governed the United States since 1980 will be a distant memory
A similar thing is going on in the Democratic Party. The liberals who’ve been speaking on behalf of their base were astonished with how popular Bernie was in 2016 and 2020. In 2020 they acted as a party to stop him from getting nomination. Biden, as bad as he is, is the party doing all it can to hold onto a base that hits its own leadership. I feel like we are in the process of MAGA getting control of the Republican Party, and the Democrat party is behind us in their populists taking control of the party. Talk to any Republican under 25 and they are all MAGA. Talk to any democrat under 25 and they will call themselves socialist. By 2050 we wil think of a nationalist Republican Party and an openly socialist democrat party as normal, and the broadly free market consensus that governed the United States since 1980 will be a distant memory
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:48 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Both the populist left and populist right in your examples want economic Leftism and redistributive welfare programs.
Protectionism has an older conservative tradition than free trade. It’s only in America in the late 20th century that free trade became the conservative position. Look how mad it made Pat Buchanan. Because again, conservatives want to defend the status quo and populists want to undo it.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:57 am to MAADFACTS
quote:
I also think a big thing for conservatives who have made their career speaking for the Republican base is that they deluded themselves into thinking the base agreed with them.
quote:
A similar thing is going on in the Democratic Party. The liberals who’ve been speaking on behalf of their base were astonished with how popular Bernie was in 2016 and 2020.
There isn't a magic formula. It's simple economics. Marginalized groups (economic or social) always see economics as the solution to their marginalization. So when you pander to them with Leftist, Robin-Hood style economics, you will get popular. That's why populism is so tied to Leftist-economics.
quote:
I feel like we are in the process of MAGA getting control of the Republican Party
Did you see the speaker vote? 96% of the GOP was not with Gaetz, and Gaetz lost over half his support from January.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 7:58 am to MAADFACTS
quote:
It’s only in America in the late 20th century that free trade became the conservative position. L
You mean when the US became the world's lone superpower and richest nation on earth by a wide margin?
I wonder why it became popular.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 8:01 am to JoeHackett
quote:
need someone with a track record of removing Soros DAs. Someone who would put pedos to death. Someone who took an actual strong stance in the face of the 2020 riots. We need an actual threat to Democrats and the status quo. Not someone who talks about these things until elected and then plays golf and watches cable.
I know a guy.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 8:07 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
No I will keep posting my stance against Leftist redistributive programs like Social Security, Section 8, etc.
I don't want any of them.
I agree with you here. Here is the issue. I am getting close to retirement age and have paid in a ton of money for SS. I want my money back. How do you fix this and not screw over those that toted the SS load all of these years?
Posted on 10/5/23 at 8:27 am to Bass Tiger
The MAGA populist politicians invented non-existent or exaggerated crises to rile up
ordinarily reasonable people.
Borrowing techniques from quasi- fascist regimes, they often find a group to demonize and portray as a threat. true America First policy would recognize America’s stature in the world. It certainly wouldn’t allow or encourage Russia to realize its goal of re-establishing an Eastern Bloc to threaten our Allie’s in Western Europe. Some of you seem to have no understanding of world history ( or American history, for that matter)
ordinarily reasonable people.
Borrowing techniques from quasi- fascist regimes, they often find a group to demonize and portray as a threat. true America First policy would recognize America’s stature in the world. It certainly wouldn’t allow or encourage Russia to realize its goal of re-establishing an Eastern Bloc to threaten our Allie’s in Western Europe. Some of you seem to have no understanding of world history ( or American history, for that matter)
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