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re: The Ukrainian Counter Offensive

Posted on 6/20/23 at 9:40 am to
Posted by FriscoTiger1973
Frisco, Texas
Member since Jan 2012
1414 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 9:40 am to
The Russians will win that because they will grind the Ukrainians down.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
19408 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 10:08 am to
Yes
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
261680 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 10:11 am to
quote:

This is now a logistics and attrition war.


Its WWI, redoux.

Soy bois support the war but wouldnt put themselves in the firing line. Pussies.
Posted by jimmy the leg
Member since Aug 2007
34396 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 11:09 am to
quote:

Soy bois support the war but wouldnt put themselves in the firing line. Pussies.


Likeboys7…
Posted by lake chuck fan
westlake
Member since Aug 2011
9254 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 11:36 am to
quote:

It's wild this whole thing probably could have been avoided on NATO neutrality.


True. That is what Russia was promised, along with no further advancement of NATO which didn't happen. That is a fact not heard on MSM. Ukraine allowed itself to be played by America and are now suffering the consequences. Biden doesn't give two shits about the people of Ukraine, if he did he would have led a peace agreement like a true leader would do. Instead he is allowing the destruction of a country and it's people to keep the money flow to the MIC of which he is surely benefitting from.
Posted by Breauxsif
Member since May 2012
22290 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 12:59 pm to
Ukrainian ground forces are being thrown into the meat grinder. They can’t sustain this war. The Russians will continue to bleed them out.
Posted by Chief One Word
Eastern Washington State
Member since Mar 2018
3701 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 1:17 pm to
quote:

The Ukrainian Counter Offensive
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 1:23 pm to
For those interested, here is a reasonably detailed article on Rus Helicopter's new equipment and countermeasures vs Ukr Air defense systems and their current tactical use in countering the Ukr offense. There have been quite a few videos recently popping up of Rus helicopters hitting vehicles w/ATGMs.

LINK
This post was edited on 6/20/23 at 1:24 pm
Posted by JackieTreehorn
Malibu
Member since Sep 2013
29185 posts
Posted on 6/20/23 at 2:30 pm to
I wish Russia would just firebomb Kiev and kill the US puppet midget. The corruption is sickening.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
19408 posts
Posted on 6/22/23 at 11:58 pm to
Ukraine has started ordering general mobilizations by region. All eligible men, 18 years or older are required to report.

Early on Kiev targeted the most pro Russian regions for conscription. It makes sense that they would do that again with these orders.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 5:34 am to
quote:

That is what Russia was promised, along with no further advancement of NATO which didn't happen. 


No such promise was made.
Posted by 94LSU
Member since May 2023
315 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 6:28 am to
quote:

No such promise was made.



This is a great example of gaslighting. Although no treaties were signed promising it the end of NATO expansion was understood by everyone at the time. There's about 20 sourced sourced examples here: LINK /

It doesn't really matter. The whole world knows now that the US will renege on every agreement they make even if it is official official when convenient. That's your legacy.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124188 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 6:36 am to
quote:

No such promise was made.

You know better than that.
Legal validity of treaties, agreements, promises, post USSR dissolution are arguable.
Those arguments are sleazy as hell. They are not technically meritless, though.

But the choice to play in the sewer entails at least owning the smell. Claims that we made no promises in exchange for Gorbachev/Shevardnadze concessions to a reunified Germany in NATO stink to high heaven.

Of course we made promises.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
19408 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 7:29 am to
Dude
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 2:10 pm to
quote:

This is a great example of gaslighting.


Lol

quote:

Although no treaties were signed promising it the end of NATO expansion was understood by everyone at the time.


Absolutely wrong. The only document that was signed between NATO and Russia explicitly stated that all states retained their own right to choose their own means of security. What do you think that subtext means?

As far as your link, there are a couple of problems. The Visegrad Group was formed in 1988, with the explicit aim of joining NATO and the EU. This was before the collapse of the USSR. Secondly, the US government was acting to expand NATO because the Russians could not mount any defense, which coincides with the position Wolfowitz took in his memo, which also coincides with the explicitly offensive realist vision also laid out in that same document. The internal cables of Bush I reveal that NATO expansion was on the offer, and without anything explicitly in writing, the statements from 1990 have little bearing on what occurred later in the decade. Again, there was no explicit, signed agreement on NATO expansion except for one that said sovereign states had the right to choose their own security and over and over, former Warsaw Pact nations chose to integrate with the EU and NATO rather than risk being in the Russian sphere of influence again.

quote:

The whole world knows now that the US will renege on every agreement they make even if it is official official when convenient.


You say this with a straight face while not acknowledging that the Russians do the same thing when it suits them. Again, might makes right. That is an inherently conservative worldview. Russia's security situation is far worse than it was before 2022, and it is all through their own doing.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 2:12 pm to
quote:

Legal validity of treaties, agreements, promises, post USSR dissolution are arguable.


Except they are above the backroom promises and statements made in speeches, where the actions of the very same people who made those statements showed their true agenda. Do we have to pretend that somehow the words said in the early 1990's are sacrosanct? Or should we look at the actions of the Western Alliance before the USSR even fell? The actions tell the story of one thing and one thing alone.
Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
23965 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 4:35 pm to
Bumping to get some hot takes on the Wagner offensive against Russia.
Posted by MoarKilometers
Member since Apr 2015
18061 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 4:57 pm to
quote:

Bumping to get some hot takes on the Wagner offensive against Russia.

2nd time in a month Russians are taking up arms against Russians. The new season of Ukraine is pretty lit.
Posted by Hateradedrink
Member since May 2023
1308 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 4:59 pm to
Q predicted this
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9910 posts
Posted on 6/23/23 at 5:00 pm to
Trust the plan.
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