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Started By
Message
re: “The Civil War settled it. Secession is unconstitutional.”
Posted on 11/20/18 at 8:54 pm to BigAppleBucky
Posted on 11/20/18 at 8:54 pm to BigAppleBucky
You leftists hate that pledge.
1
Posted on 11/20/18 at 8:59 pm to jimbeam
quote:
The USA is like a gang: once you in you can’t leave
Like Islam too.
Apostates must be killed.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:05 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Plus....federalism triumphed in the Civil War. That's why.
Plus all the interstate commerce SC rulings that made us one entity.
States and borders don't really exist anymore. Drinking age is universal...almost all laws are universal.
Only difference is certain stores are closed on Sundays in certain States.
Contrast that when the Civil War was fought and State's could be completely different from each other - in laws, etc.
Now not so much...you pretty much have to abide by Federal guidelines and laws if you want Federal aid.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:11 pm to C
quote:
Because the union has forcefully prevented it in the past...
HMMMM - so it really wasn't because the Confederacy started it by "firing on Ft Sumter?"
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:12 pm to Parmen
quote:
Secession from the British Empire was illegal too.
Secession is okay as long as you win.
Bingo. Almost every revolution in history has been illegal and traitorous.
You can do anything you want as long as you win. Winners write history and if you win the revolution it was just. If you lose, it wasn't.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:14 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Does anyone here actually believe that if, at the time the Constitution was to be ratified, the states were told they were entering into an irrevocable union, said document would have actually been ratified?
Debates like this show the base and rank hypocrisy of our political class. We have the nerve to preach to other countries for suppressing popular uprisings in their own country and attempt to lecture the world about freedom, yet if a state attempted to exercise popular sovereignty within its boundaries and leave the Union, our government would invade and likely drop a bomb on said state's most populous city.
This is gospel truth. States were hesitant to join because they didn't want to give up their sovereignty. They feared (as it turned out correctly) the federal government would grow in power and crush state's rights.
As it turns out, that's exactly what happened.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:18 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Does anyone here actually believe that if, at the time the Constitution was to be ratified, the states were told they were entering into an irrevocable union, said document would have actually been ratified?
Probably not. But as I learned a long time ago, times change and so do the people. The erosion of States' Rights began right at the beginning of the Republic.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:22 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Does anyone here actually believe that if, at the time the Constitution was to be ratified, the states were told they were entering into an irrevocable union, said document would have actually been ratified?
The US started as a Confederacy. The Articles of Confederation weren't working so they scrapped it and went with the Constitution. Maybe they could have just rewritten the Articles but they obviously decided the federal government was too weak.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:45 pm to baybeefeetz
Thomas Jefferson believed in secession, so do I.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:49 pm to PEPE
quote:
This is gospel truth. States were hesitant to join because they didn't want to give up their sovereignty. They feared (as it turned out correctly) the federal government would grow in power and crush state's rights.
As it turns out, that's exactly what happened.
But that's what would always happen.
The future doesn't exclude people just because they have guns.
The States rights people were already living in the Past by popular opinion, manifest destiny and common sense.
Fighting to hold onto something that was on its last legs.
Federalism and the abolition of slavery was going to happen regardless of secession. No one would have traded with the South - an embargo, even if they had won the war or secured some peace.
As Grant, said..."it was the worst cause any people have ever fought for."
On mulitiple fronts. They took a loser into a war that even if they had been granted peace...might have had that peace for about 10 years before hellfire rained down after re-grouping by the Feds.
Was this continent really going to exist as a bunch of separate States?
Hell even the South didn't want that nonsense and formed the Confederacy.
This was 1865 and the South was acting like it was 1685. Still a colony but separate. Loose ties.
It was made abundantly clear after 1789 that we aren't just a bunch of separate former colonies with our own soverignty.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 9:56 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
Isn’t that is a massive brainwashing? Why on earth can’t a state choose to leave the union peacefully?
From Day One Hamilton sought to make it as difficult as possible with a strong central bank and continental army. Lincoln tried to solidify it.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:04 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
You are talking about practical consequences. How does that make it a binding rule? Is it unconstitutional?
It's not a question of constitutionality. Laws are irrelevant.
Secession is as "legal" as it is successful. And, chances are, there will be blood to pay for it.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:28 pm to baybeefeetz
The 10th amendment says the federal government only has the rights granted to it in the constitution, all other rights are held by the people and the states. Since the constitution does not give the federal government the right to deny secession initiated by states, by default they have that right imo. So there.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:30 pm to Tigertracks
Yup
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:39 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
Isn’t that is a massive brainwashing? Why on earth can’t a state choose to leave the union peacefully?
Because we are not States anymore.
Just in the cultural and look you have pretty mountains sense.
The US is just one large mass.
Civil War ended the idea of States and separate identity.
Future laws solidified it with all Federal Aid mandating that every state has to have the same laws they dictate.
Supreme Court Commerce Clause rulings and the only difference between states is politics and who has better BBQ or pizza?
There's no soveriegnty once the SC said anyone can travel freely between State to State regardless if they are breaking those State's laws and if they are breaking those State's laws, those laws are trumped by Federal Law...ergo transporting people across state lines for "immoral purposes" or getting lodging in Alabama.
This post was edited on 11/20/18 at 10:43 pm
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:42 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
Secession is unconstitutional.
Posted on 11/20/18 at 10:43 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:None. And lots of people on this board cheer that.
So then what rights do the states have as against the fed gov?
Posted on 11/21/18 at 12:02 am to baybeefeetz
In his memoirs, Grant argues that, if there were a right of peaceful secession, it only applied to the original 13 colonies. Any member state that became a part of the US after the formation of the United States “bought in” so-to-speak and forfeited said right of secession.
Not claiming right or wrong, but just offering up an opinion from that period in time.
Not claiming right or wrong, but just offering up an opinion from that period in time.
Posted on 11/21/18 at 12:20 am to Gr8t8s
I would say states had the right to secede, and the Civil War was not against those states, but rather the country of the Confederate States of America. We had nothing against those states bc we let them right back into the union.
Posted on 11/21/18 at 2:12 am to baybeefeetz
There’s a way out if you can kick our arse.
Go for it.
Go for it.
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