re: The basis of western civilization is that human life has intrinsic value

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Not in the slightest. This patently is false. Western society still doesn’t believe all lives have value. This country was built by slaves. Women couldn’t even open their own bank accounts until what, the 1970s?

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This is like saying Amazon was built by fulfillment centers and web designers.

The rest I agree with, and it’s a big reason we were so successful

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Considering the vast majority of babies who are aborted are black and brown, it aligns perfectly with historical western values.

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I don't think you said what you meant to say with this. As a matter of fact, you kind of stepped in it.

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ok what lives does Western Society NOT value

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Babies, children, women, poor people, homeless people, incarcerated people…

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We do still have slaves, they are in state custody now.

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Sadly Kamala put many of them there. Was cool in Trump's last term he released many from Federal prison.

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Do you claim society is perfect? Why should I pretend it is and always has been?

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I have never heard of anyone say that 'society is perfect' - that is pure hogwash.

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Why can’t we be honest about the history and current state of our society?

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That would be a good piece of advice for you to ponder - you seem to think you have all the answers, but it is absolutely obvious that you have no idea what the 'problem' is.

Know what the 'problem' is??? -----> it is lame-brained people like you who think they are smart enough to solve a 'problem' that may or may not even exist - and if it does exist it has evaded the best efforts of billions of people before now.

Based off your commentary on this page I would wager that you think it is a "problem" that many people would like to protect an unborn child from being arbitrarily killed just because the mother may decide one day that it would be 'a bother' to have to raise it.

Abortion is a necessary procedure for some cases - just like amputation of a leg is sometimes necessary.

I hope you would not advocate that a healthy person should be able to force a doctors to amputate their leg, just because they could have an easier life pan-handling on a street corner for 'contributions' rather than have to earn a living doing real work.

The two processes are more similar than you want to believe.

It is the man's leg - should he be able to do with it what he wants? Well of course - if he wants to go off in the back room and shoot himself in the kneecap, then he will get his desire and probably should not be punished for it.

HOWEVER anyone who KNEW that is what he was going to do would be sorely shamed for not trying to convince him to not shoot off his leg.

And CERTAINLY we would not approve FORCING a medical doctor and a HOSPITAL to entertain the notion of removing his leg just because he "wanted it gone."

Having a separate human being living within your own body is just as magnificent a situation as having two legs to assist in your mobility.

Now what you are really saying is that the 'fetus' is just a group of cells, like a cancer, that a woman may have to contend with if she engages in that age-old activity of copulation.

Granted, this is a condition that we males can never fully appreciate. However, it could be that the male doesn't want the kid either - yet he has to work for the next 18 years to provide for the child and the mother IF the mother wants to make him do it.

Society dealt with this situation over the past millennia by grating females preferred status - that they were to be honored, protected from all harm, nurtured and respected for the critical role they play in the survival of the specie.

Now comes along a generation of arrogant female with zero appreciation for how the world works and thinks only of THEIR own immediate desire, regardless of how repugnant it is to the rest of moral humanity.

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ok what lives does Western Society NOT value


Babies, children, women, poor people, homeless people, incarcerated people…

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Western society has created hundreds of years of charitable efforts,
Labor laws
education
free education
Western society has harsher penalties for rape sexual abuse
Western civilization tries to find homeless people homes and deal as it can with the underlying mental health/ drug abuse

Right here please tell me what society has done anything on any one of those problems that you threw at me name a society that has done a better job of addressing the human condition that leads to the problems that poor people suffer everywhere name one country that has done it better that's not in the Western world

Maybe you prefer China where people are jumping out of buildings that the Chinese government had to put netting up around the buildings because the enslaved were working

Or Africa now that most of the Western nations have been kicked out and they're running things themselves and their kidnapping 12 year old boys and making them fight in civil wars or raping eight year old girls that's the
option

And I know what you're going to say it was because of the Western powers that went into Africa that did that to them those tribal fights were going on long before white people found the dark continent africans were enslaving other tribes killing them

slavery is not an invention of Western Society

Hell I dont even think that's what you're trying to say because then I'm just I'm not even going to talk to you if you think white people started slavery

go read and come back to me if that's the weak sauce ur cooking with

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o abortion is an expression/example of institutional racism?

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Boom

That is NOT the basis of “western” civilization, as the barbarians of the Teutonic forests, the blue faced Picts of Britain, the Berserkers of the Vikings and the animal helmeted Gauls of Iberia absolutely DID NOT believe human life had intrinsic value.

It wasn’t until the spread of CHRISTIANITY - which believes that all human life had intrinsic value as we are icons of GOD (made in HIS image) - that civilization in the west began to change.

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying re: the value of life but we need to call things with right words and the tropes of “Western” values is truly not correct as the spread of Christianity and foundation of the first government that recognized Christian values was in the East in Constantinople.

Those are all recognized advances of Western civilization even in one of my earlier posts I mentioned the pre-Islamic Persian world Cyrus the Great The first codified protection of freedom of religion

But yes as a pursuit those advances were found in countries that were of the Christian religion and then further advances in England with the Magna Carta United States with the Bill of Rights even revolutionary France some humanism which kind of goes against the church but the principles that they were expanding and expounding on were Judeo Christian ethics

Forgive the lack of punctuation it's late i'm just going to the voice 2 text

I will say that I have gotten a better understanding of just how brainwashed people are.

I had enough Interest in history and politics and theology and the like that I did my own reading but I guess had I just listened to my teachers there would be a lot of things that I would think are true that simply aren't

But I still put the responsibility on the individual, not the education system and I'm not excusing the education system
but kids are constantly challenging authority why don't they question authority when it comes to what they're being taught in a classroom

What's stopping anybody today from just reading up on these things on the Internet not that you can always trust the Internet but still try to learn more about the things that you want to argue about

not you specifically