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re: The basis of western civilization is that human life has intrinsic value
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:27 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:27 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Although I’m not sure women were ever viewed as not fully human.. not sure what the justification for discriminating against them for so long was.
And that's why I think it's a special case that deserves it's own discussion.
quote:
I’m arguing that western society was never built on respecting the dignity of human life.
Yes, I know what you're arguing.
And I'm arguing that theoretically it was, but that practically the ideals were not fully lived up to using the same tactic we're still using now for a certain group.
That ideal is still the ideological foundation of all the laws we have. At least all of the laws we have that are based on morality/rights/etc.
The Constitution is still based on the concept of inalienable rights.
If it's not based on that, what is it based on?
1
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:30 pm to Geauxldilocks
quote:Not the root of all evil, but certainly evidence against the claim of the OP title.
Folks, this is the viewpoint of the modern liberal white guilter. This poster loathes his or herself and western civilization is the root of all evil in the world.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:31 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
You seem to be so anti-western civilization then please tell me what society has furthered the rights of women or the enslaved better than Western civilization
Why can’t we be honest about the history and current state of our society? Do you claim society is perfect? Why should I pretend it is and always has been?
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:32 pm to Robin Masters
The shooter should be hung in the town square!
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:34 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Although I’m not sure women were ever viewed as not fully human.. not sure what the justification for discriminating against them for so long was.
that may be the saddest statement I will read today - written by a supposedly modern human.
Do you not understand that we, humanity, achieved this exalted status we enjoy today by a long tortuous century by century evaluation of what works and what doesn't work.
Go back to cave man era and demand that the man take care of the children while the women go out and protect the clan from the cave bears. The women would be the first ones to kick your arse out from being a retard.
I never cease to be amazed at you modern day 'experts' on anything that pops into your mind - ESPECIALLY if Taylor Swift or Oprah Winfree, or some other 'celebrity' brings it up first.
Just a closing statement - I do not know you - all I have to go on are your several comments in this thread - and honestly I wouldn't enjoy having to suffer your presence in real life unless you were genuinely interested in discussing matters on a logical basis.
For instance - you have mentioned 'slavery' and used the fact that it took the modern world 15,000 or more years to figure out that it is a bad thing. But in fact we are not there yet - slaves still exist in some far away places that you don't care about because they probably don't even know what is at the top of the Rap Song hit parade this week.
BUT - you should ponder the fact that any descendant from any slave in America should thank their lucky stars that their distant ancestor happened to survive the ordeal of being held in slavery long enough to cooperate in your conception.
Otherwise you would be sitting in some jungle dodging malaria and tigers and snakes for the rest of your short unhappy life - IF you existed at all.
The fact you don't take into account is that American slave owners BOUGHT them from the African people who captured them and offered them for sale.
Yes - the 'slave owners' could have just not bought them - but then the owners would have just killed them - if they could not sell them, they were worthless, and not worth feeding.
TRUE ENOUGH - the whole idea of slavery is antithetical to our modern concepts - BUT it was not OUR idea to begin with.
We INHERITED that custom - and it was MOSTLY abetted by the people who held the SUPPLY =====> the black AFRICANs in AFRICA who captured, held them in bondage, and SOLD them to the highest bidder.
Want to find the original bad guy??? - look for the first one who SOLD the slave to begin with.
Now WE - here in America - sacrificed 600,000 MEN to eradicate that awful situation that we INHERITED.
I am not trying to 'sugar coat' the fact that the SOUTH used slaves to do the manual labor requited to produce the cotton for the NORTH to purchase.
Want to spread the 'blame' for slavery in the USA??? - how about those who snorted about 'those brutes in the south who owned slaves' all the while dressed in the cotton clothing produced by those slaves.
The NORTH could have easily said - NOPE - we ain't buying that cotton - we'll just continue wearing these leather jackets instead.
Could have done that. but they didn't
Now - find something else to shout at the moon about - the rest of us are going to work ever day to make the world a little better in the best way we can.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:36 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
And I'm arguing that theoretically it was
If the only humans were white men…
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:37 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Why can’t we be honest about the history and current state of our society? Do you claim society is perfect? Why should I pretend it is and always has been?
It's not about it being perfect.
It's about whether the OP statement is true or not.
And here's the difference in your interpretation and mine.
If it were true that America did not have the intrinsic value of human life interwoven into our governing documents, we'd STILL have legal slaves and STILL be oppressing all the groups we used to oppress.
There would be no basis upon which to improve our adherence to the ideal, because there would be no ideal.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:39 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
If the only humans were white men…
Then how did we get to where we are now?
What provided the basis for rulings like Brown V BOE, for example?
Why does anyone in the country have any rights other than white men, if that's the only institutional basis for rights?
I know you're married to an institutional victimhood status, but the one who is stubbornly refusing to admit the reality/history of this situation is you.
This post was edited on 9/15/24 at 8:41 pm
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:42 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
the root of all evil, but certainly evidence against the claim of the OP title.
No. Just evidence that people are complex and imperfect.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:42 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
If it were true that America did not have the intrinsic value of human life interwoven into our governing documents, we'd STILL have legal slaves and STILL be oppressing all the groups we used to oppress.
We do still have slaves, they are in state custody now. Arguments can certainly be made that the same groups are still being oppressed, although the fragile men who post here can’t bear the thought of them not being the supreme victims of everything, so no use in even going there.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:43 pm to 4cubbies
quote:If you can show me where I've said or implied that society is perfect
Why can’t we be honest about the history and current state of our society? Do you claim society is perfect? Why should I pretend it is and always has been?
I'll shave my head
And no one is saying nor is anybody trying to claim that we've got everything right but there is better and worse. History gives us the evidence and its irrefutable
And we have a record of the values , and where those values are found and what they are founded upon. Judeo Christian ethics the Bible and other writing advancing the rights of man from pre-Islamic Persia to the Greeks, The Magna Carta each advanced a principle but the Bill of Rights and the Constitution Set the example that still democracies around the world seek to duplicate
Those have allowed us as a Western civilization to make the most progress in protecting and advancing the rights of human beings,including women
To ignore those now and to devalue the principle and tenants that these advances were founded upon means we are turning back the clock on that progress and giving control over to the opposing force
Totalitarianism, enslavement humans as chattel for the oligarts and they do not value life,, esp that of children
Take a look at what communism thought should be the age of consent they saw little kids as just objects to be used by the powerful
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:43 pm to 4cubbies
Stop being you.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:44 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Then how did we get to where we are now?
? You said that back then others weren’t considered human which is why human dignity was in fact respected.
So I clarified and said the truth, which is that only white men were considered human. Are you hanging your argument now?
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:45 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
There would be no basis upon which to improve our adherence to the ideal, because there would be no ideal.
There is so much brilliance in that thought you just had. It’s a portal of an idea. It took me so long to appreciate that. I had to learn the hard way. Imho, it’s the key reason we have to bring God back into our culture.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:45 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
If you can show me where I've said or implied that society is perfect
Why did you accuse me of being anti-western society?
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:46 pm to 4cubbies
How bout screw you loser!
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:47 pm to SquaringCircles
quote:
offer that the US and the West generally have pursued what you describe domestically while engaging in utter barbarism in their foreign policy. Take the Ukraine war, which y’all all rightly oppose. I’d add Israel’s actions as well, which is only possible because of US support, but I accept there’s a lot of resistance to that idea on the right. Colonialism more broadly. Clearing the way for bananas and coffee for the privileged. I’m not trying to attack what you described, but it’s high time we applied that idea to humans all over the globe, not just those lucky enough to be secure behind our fence line.
I mean I certainly didn’t make the claim that we had perfected the idea that human life has value! Obviously we continue to have to make strides. But my main point was that abortion was not congruent with western values. Obviously the foreign policy example you offer is another incongruence.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:48 pm to oldskule
quote:
How bout screw you loser!
:
But women shouldn’t be allowed to vote because they are too emotional.
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:50 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
We do still have slaves, they are in state custody now.
And this is a sterling example of your typical intellectual dishonesty.
People who are in state custody are there because—overwhelmingly—they committed crimes.
Now we can talk about whether the justice system is impartial, fair, appropriate, accurate, effective, etc. But those are different conversations.
Equating convicted felons with chattel slaves kidnapped and brought here from Africa is quite dishonest and frankly disrespectful to those people and their memory.
I understand that everything you consider has to be twisted into a grad-school version of the current academic fad, which is "institutional racism," but you still have not answered the question.
Even if you transparently insist against all reason that the same groups are being oppressed in America as much as they ever have been—which is a ridiculous and self-evidently false claim, btw—you still have to admit that there is at least a difference in presentation.
You can't take a black person, put a collar around his neck, and put him up on an auction block and sell him to the highest bidder. You can't legally own a woman and rape her at will.
What provided the institutional basis for forcing those changes?
Posted on 9/15/24 at 8:50 pm to Robin Masters
quote:
my main point was that abortion was not congruent with western values.
Considering the vast majority of babies who are aborted are black and brown, it aligns perfectly with historical western values.
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