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re: Ted Cruz Shares Anti-Catholic Conspiracy

Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:41 pm to
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
110908 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:41 pm to
quote:

Most Catholics I know aren't interested in open borders even though the Catholic Church is very instrumental in getting illegals into the US



I would also assert this push comes more from the Post Vatican II social justice wing of the Catholic Church, than the Back-to-Latin Mass traditional wing that the author seems to want to lump in with these "integralists."
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:42 pm to
Ahh… so now the position is that the Church was fine when it recognized the canon, but later somehow drifted into corruption. Convenient timing.

That still leaves the same problem. If the Church had the authority to definitively recognize the canon of Scripture, then that authority didn’t suddenly disappear afterward. And if it didn’t have that authority, then you still haven’t explained why its recognition of the canon should be trusted in the first place.

Calling the argument “gibberish” and throwing in some colorful insults doesn’t really resolve that tension. It just avoids engaging with it.

But I do appreciate the reminder that when the argument gets thin, the rhetoric usually gets thicker.
Posted by GRTiger
On a roof eating alligator pie
Member since Dec 2008
71037 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:44 pm to
It also comes from Barbie's people in a lot of cases, who enjoy using the cloak of a "Catholic charity" like the freaks use "antifa."
Posted by willymeaux
Member since Mar 2012
4894 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:44 pm to
There’s a whole series of these made from Mormon artwork. They’re pretty entertaining:



Posted by LittleJerrySeinfield
350,000 Post Karma
Member since Aug 2013
11288 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:46 pm to
quote:

but the real question is who gave you the authority to decide those interpretations are correct?


Since Scripture is inspired by God, I'd say He did. It's written on a 5th grade level. I doesn't need a guy in a funny hat to tell me what it means. The Bible is its own interpreter.

quote:

For the first 1,500 years of Christianity the overwhelming majority of Christians believed in things like baptismal regeneration (including infant baptism), the real presence in the Eucharist, prayers for the dead, apostolic succession, and the veneration of saints and icons. These weren’t late inventions.


Not for the first roughly 200 or so years of that 1,500 years. That's just RCC retconning.

quote:

Mary being honored and uniquely chosen isn’t controversial in Scripture
Catholics go way past honoring Mary. Claiming she was sinless and was a perpetual virgin is not Scriptural.

quote:

While you’re at it, why don’t you go ahead and read revelations chapter 12 verses one two and five specifically. Who do you think that is?


I've read it many times. even taught classes on it. The woman, of course, is a symbol of the "whole family of God" (Ephesians 3:15), including especially the true Israel of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It includes Christians, because later in the chapter, they are indicated as children of the woman; and it includes the Old Testament Israel, because through them the Messiah was born.

quote:

Jesus says plainly, “My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink” (John 6:55)


Christ was speaking in the spiritual sense. In the next verse He said' " Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him".

Are you literally abiding in the fleshly body of Christ right now?

quote:

Ecclesiastical hierarchy:
[quote]elders and oversee churches
yep, the only Scriptural governance

quote:

God explicitly commanded sacred images in the Old Testament: cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-20) and the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9). The prohibition in Exodus is against idols, not all images. Christians don’t worship image…. they honor what they represent.


All those were shadows of things to come.

quote:

We also see entire households baptized in Acts 16:15 and Acts 16:33.
Not until after they heard the Word and believed. Kinda tough for infants. Unnecessary to, since they are sinless.

eta: I'll try to get to the rest later
This post was edited on 3/16/26 at 2:52 pm
Posted by UtahCajun
Member since Jul 2021
5489 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:47 pm to
quote:

Trump's base was told, repeatedly, who Trump was. Trump himself told you, repeatedly, who he is... You got the Trump you voted for. Be mad at yourselves and learn to vote better in the future


Whew, good thing I never voted for him. I just used "we" since I do support his Presidency. I used "we" for every President since I was of voting age.
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:48 pm to
Posted by GRTiger
On a roof eating alligator pie
Member since Dec 2008
71037 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:48 pm to
quote:

Since Scripture is inspired by God, I'd say He did. It's written on a 5th grade level. I doesn't need a guy in a funny hat to tell me what it means. The Bible is its own interpreter.


Which of the 1000 reformed Christian brands does the Bible vouch for?
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
128773 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:48 pm to
quote:

but later somehow drifted into corruption.


It didn’t later somehow drift into corruption. It was obviously corrupt. Your ecclesiology cannot account for it anymore than I can account for a round circle. That’s not a me problem. That’s a definitional problem in your ecclesiology.
Posted by GRTiger
On a roof eating alligator pie
Member since Dec 2008
71037 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:50 pm to
Martin Luther prayed the rosary and to Mary until he died, did he not? Your founding father seems to disagree with your misguided characteristic of Catholics' view of Mary.
Posted by LittleJerrySeinfield
350,000 Post Karma
Member since Aug 2013
11288 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:53 pm to
quote:

Martin Luther prayed the rosary and to Mary until he died, did he not? Your founding father seems to disagree with your misguided characteristic of Catholics' view of Mary.


Oh, you think I'm Protestant. I'm not.
Posted by GRTiger
On a roof eating alligator pie
Member since Dec 2008
71037 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 2:54 pm to
Cool. Are you Christian?
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:01 pm to
Sorry, there’s simply no way you believe these opinions….

First, the “5th grade reading level” claim doesn’t hold up historically. If the Bible interprets itself so clearly, then why do sincere Christians reading the same text arrive at wildly different doctrines? That’s exactly why the early Church relied on apostolic teaching and authority, not private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20).

Second, the claim that these beliefs didn’t exist in the first 200 years just isn’t accurate. Ignatius of Antioch around 107 AD explicitly calls the Eucharist the flesh of Christ and condemns those who deny it. Irenaeus in the 2nd century speaks of baptismal regeneration and the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ. These are very early witnesses, not medieval inventions.

Third, on John 6. If Jesus meant it purely symbolically, the reaction of the crowd makes no sense. People leave specifically because the teaching is hard. Instead of clarifying a metaphor, Jesus doubles down and lets them walk away. Paul later warns in 1 Corinthians 11 that receiving the Eucharist unworthily profanes the body and blood of the Lord. That warning only makes sense if something more than symbolism is happening.

Fourth, Revelation 12 can have multiple layers of symbolism. The woman can represent Israel and the Church, but she also literally gives birth to the Messiah. That historical role belongs to Mary. Biblical symbols often operate on more than one level.

Finally, on baptism. Scripture connects baptism directly with regeneration and salvation (John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21). Covenant signs in Scripture consistently include children. The New Covenant doesn’t suddenly exclude them.

So the real issue isn’t whether Catholics read Scripture. The issue is that the earliest Christians consistently interpreted these passages in ways that look a lot closer to Catholic teaching than modern Protestant conclusions.
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:03 pm to
If it was “obviously corrupt,” then you’ve just created a much bigger problem for yourself.

The same Church you say was “obviously corrupt” is the Church that preserved the Scriptures, copied them for centuries, and ultimately recognized the canon of the New Testament. If that Church was fundamentally unreliable, then the very foundation you’re standing on becomes questionable too.

Catholic ecclesiology actually accounts for human sin inside the Church. Christ never promised sinless leaders. He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) and that the Spirit would guide it into truth (John 16:13).

Protestantism, on the other hand, requires the Church to become doctrinally corrupt for centuries and then be corrected by private interpreters reading the same Bible that Church preserved.

Good luck solving that problem.
This post was edited on 3/16/26 at 3:07 pm
Posted by LittleJerrySeinfield
350,000 Post Karma
Member since Aug 2013
11288 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:04 pm to
quote:

Cool. Are you Christian?
yes
Posted by GRTiger
On a roof eating alligator pie
Member since Dec 2008
71037 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:05 pm to
Which?
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:05 pm to
Can you elaborate?

What denomination, or are you non-denominational?
Posted by TigersWin88
Member since Mar 2022
475 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:06 pm to
quote:

Peter said we are all a "royal priesthood". Christ is the head of the church, then you have the elders/pastors/bishops/presbyters of the individual congregations, then the deacons of those congregations.



Catholics believe that all Catholic laypeople share in the common priesthood of Christ, which is distinct of the ministerial priesthood.

quote:

That's the extent of church governance in Scripture.


The Council of Jerusalem is the first Council of the Church, written in Acts 15. The question of circumcision was settled by Peter and James, after “the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter.” The Magisterium, since this passage of scripture, has always had the duty of authentically interpreting, preserving, and defending Scripture and Tradition, most especially when questions and debate arise.

quote:

Apostolic succession is not a thing.


Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree with you. And both believe the Sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred through the laying on of the hands by a bishop.
In 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul told Timothy. “And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.”

In 2 Timothy 1:6, Acts 8:17, 1 Timothy 4:14, we find the laying of the hands. “For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.” “Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” “Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.” Paul also warns against “being hasty in the laying on of hands” and tells Timothy in 2 Tim 1:6 “Rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.” This, in scripture, is a clear presentation of Apostolic succession.

In 80 AD, though it may not be what you consider to be ‘scripture’, Pope Clement 1, in his Letter to the Corinthians, writes “Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry”.

I’m sure Pastor Bob knows more Pope Clement.

quote:

The only "sacrament" in Scripture is the Lord's Supper.


Baptism in Scripture- Matthew 28: 19-20 “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

Eucharist in Scripture- John 6: 48-59 “I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.”

Confession in Scripture- John 20: 21-23 “He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Confirmation in Scripture- Titus 3:5 & 2 Cor 1:21-22 “Not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” “Now he that confirmeth us with you in Christ, and that hath anointed us, is God: Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.”

Holy Matrimony in Scripture- Ephesians 5:31-32 “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.”

Anointing of the Sick in Scripture- James 5:14-15 “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

Holy Orders in Scripture- Hebrews 5:1, 4-6 “For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins… Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was. So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.”
This post was edited on 3/16/26 at 3:08 pm
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
2413 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:12 pm to
Dam Son. Gonna have to read your take now. I might actually learn something in this thread after all.
Posted by LittleJerrySeinfield
350,000 Post Karma
Member since Aug 2013
11288 posts
Posted on 3/16/26 at 3:32 pm to
quote:

First, the “5th grade reading level” claim doesn’t hold up historically. If the Bible interprets itself so clearly, then why do sincere Christians reading the same text arrive at wildly different doctrines? That’s exactly why the early Church relied on apostolic teaching and authority, not private interpretation


The early church didn't have the Scriptures, or at least the full collection of them until the late 1st century-early 2nd.

quote:

then why do sincere Christians reading the same text arrive at wildly different doctrines?


What sounds good. How they were raised. All number of reasons.

And I'll ask again: are you abiding in the literal fleshly body of Christ at the moment? What does it mean to have Christ living in you? Is His literal, fleshly body inside you?

The crowd not understanding Jesus or because it was hard isn't an argument. That happened on multiple occasions. The disciples themselves didn't understand many times.

And when you take the Eucharist, what does it taste like?

quote:

Scripture connects baptism directly with regeneration and salvation (John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21).


Correct. Babies don't need to be regenerated. Sin isn't inherited. Jesus said "believe and be immersed". Immersion always followed hearing the Word and belief. Always.





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