re: Southern Baptist ban on women pastors fails in historic vote

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Yes, we get around the "pastor" label by calling them "Minister or Director of ...

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Isn't that ridiculous though? Either women are or aren't to have leadership roles. So it's perfectly fine for a woman to act as a pastor in function so long as the name plate on her desk doesn't say the wrong name on it?


And for the record, i'm not attacking you at all. I just mean these religious do's and don'ts which don't have to do with Jesus and who he is are so tiresome and ridiculous.

Ridiculous, even though the SBC is an association rather than a ecclesiastical body of courts that can make binding decisions on the congregational level. This is why I appreciate presbyterianism.

Regarding the actual issue at play: it's a shame that so many churches have absolutely abandoned sola scriptura, looking instead to the culture to be the final authority on all things, including the Scriptures, themselves.

There is a good case that can be made from the Scriptures that there is some participation in the office of deacon in some regard for women, but that can't be said for women as elders, including and especially teaching elders (pastors).

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sola scriptura

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Do women have to cover their heads in your church? Does your wife wear jewelry or get her hair done? Does she pray without covering her head? Has she ever volunteered to teach kid's ministry or to teach a women's bible study?

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But that's not what the word says. It isn't written that everyone should be silent. It's written that women should be. If Paul meant it for everyone, why didn't he write it that way?

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That’s because from what I’ve read on the matter they had a habit of being loud and disruptive in their gatherings.

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This was my entire point. Lots of folks take only the women portion of his letter but omit the other points he makes. My contention is that the entire passage was written for a specific purpose, not necessarily as an all time commandment.

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I think context and practicing sound hermeneutics is critical to understanding scripture and what is being said, and in this case, I think the roles of men and women are quite consistent throughout scripture. God has and continues to use both men and women for the good of His kingdom, and both play very important roles in the church, especially when those roles are in keeping with God’s plan for mankind, as in men being Godly men, and women being Godly women. That being said, God has put men in leadership roles for His good purpose, and women in nurturing roles also for His good purpose. When both are operating in their roles, the family and the church works like it is supposed to work and you find successful families and churches as a result. When there is a confusion of defined roles in either, there will be confusion in families and churches as a result.

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Is that contextual or is that an "all time" command?

Does that mean women should also not sing in worship, serve in kids ministry, have their heads covered in service as well?
BETA Page

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Given that God had Mary Magdalene witness the resurrection, fund the ministry of Jesus after, speak to, encourage and lead the disciples........I am ok if a woman delivers a sermon.

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My contention is that the entire passage was written for a specific purpose, not necessarily as an all time commandment.

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Paul is writing to a specific church for a specific reason.

That does not make his answer specific only to them.


If you ask me bro should I get the Covid vaccine?

And I respond, no one should ever get the Covid vaccine.

Does that mean I only meant you? Of course not

Y’all could actually post the scripture. 1 Tim 2

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Paul is clearing giving instruction that is not just for one point in time for one group only but it is specifically talking about women not being in authority over men.

I also don’t think you are correct in saying the SBC covered up sexual abuse.
Churches within the SBC have. But the SBC is t like other denominations. It is extremely easy to be a SBC church and those churches have almost exclusive autonomy.

But even these situations are few. The VAST majority of SBC sexual abuse situations have resulted in immediate referral to the police and kicking these people out of their churches.

People want to make comparisons to the Catholic Church and that’s disingenuous.

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If you ask me bro should I get the Covid vaccine?

And I respond, no one should ever get the Covid vaccine.

Does that mean I only meant you? Of course not

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That's a misrepresentation and a false equivalent to what happened here.


If women shouldn't ever lead, explain God allowing Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Huldah, Abigail, Rahab, Esther, Lydia, and Phoebe, etc to do so.

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I'd argue that God's word contains a ton of examples of women in leadership. Miriam, Deborah, Esther, Phoebe, etc.

I'm not necessarily arguing they should be senior pastors but I think it's at best debatable whether they should have leadership roles or not.

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I made that point earlier. I think strong Christian women play a very important role in leadership, just not as Pastors over the entire church of both men and women, and you’re right about scripture being littered with women in leadership roles and used by God for those purposes He used them for. It’s just not pastoral over the entire church of men and women. That is in keeping with scripture and in the nature that God created us to operate within as men being leaders, and women being nurturers. It comes naturally because it’s the way we were created.

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Ridiculous, even though the SBC is an association rather than a ecclesiastical body of courts that can make binding decisions on the congregational level.

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I don't pay much attention to the SBC but I heard a blurb this morning that the ban failed because it's already codified elsewhere and this wasn't necessary. That sounds more likely than "SBC churches are about to have women pastors", but time will tell.

I did read them. I read the one you posted. And I think you've misused the term strawman.

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Strawman: Argument in which the person sets up and then attacks a position that is not actually being debated.

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You posted this.....

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11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

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Your own argument is that women are to be quiet and not teach men.


I refuted your argument by listing multiple women who not only were not quiet, but some like Huldah not only prophesied, but also taught the King, who was a man.


Let's look at 2 Chronicles 34.

19 When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes.
20 He gave these orders to Hilkiah, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Abdon son of Micah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant:
21 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that is poured out on us because those who have gone before us have not kept the word of the LORD; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book.”
22 Hilkiah and those the king had sent with him went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tokhath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter.
23 She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me,
24 ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people—all the curses written in the book that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah.



She's clearly teaching a man here isn't she or is the argument a woman can interpret and prophesy to a king but can’t lead today?