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Started By
Message
re: Robert’s insist that tariffs are a tax on the American people, and a tax needs to come
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:06 am to Bunk Moreland
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:06 am to Bunk Moreland
"Trump is doing a lot of crazy things that are leading to penalty flags"
IMO he's not doing enough "crazy things". Why do I say that? We've got this demon we call "the out-of-control deficit" rolling down the mountain towards us.
Gold is going through the roof because our money losing value fast. Thank God President Trump is in office. He's been able to subdue the Bidenflation demon for a while anyway.
But make no mistake if President Trump loses this SCOTUs ruling on Tariff's I shutter to think what will happen.
I can't believe this. It's like the whole nation is living in a fantacy, completely oblivious to the effects of this disaster that awaits us from this $ 37 trillion dollar deficit demon.
The democrats have stolen everything, and now they want more.
Whether it involves a family budget or a government treasury, if you spend more than you take in eventually you will max out the credit cards and then..........
My poor grandchildren.
IMO he's not doing enough "crazy things". Why do I say that? We've got this demon we call "the out-of-control deficit" rolling down the mountain towards us.
Gold is going through the roof because our money losing value fast. Thank God President Trump is in office. He's been able to subdue the Bidenflation demon for a while anyway.
But make no mistake if President Trump loses this SCOTUs ruling on Tariff's I shutter to think what will happen.
I can't believe this. It's like the whole nation is living in a fantacy, completely oblivious to the effects of this disaster that awaits us from this $ 37 trillion dollar deficit demon.
The democrats have stolen everything, and now they want more.
Whether it involves a family budget or a government treasury, if you spend more than you take in eventually you will max out the credit cards and then..........
My poor grandchildren.
This post was edited on 11/6/25 at 8:12 am
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:07 am to Padme
I am not sure what Roberts is thinking. Is he considering that any power Congress grants the President to tariff is unconstitutional? That would be wild, and I do not think that is where he is going.
What I think is probably more likely is this:
The IEEPA gives the President the power to "regulate" importation or exportation. if you interpret "regulate" to mean the President has the power to tariff imports then that would necessarily mean the President has the power to tariff exports. In that case, the IEEPA would be unconstitutional because the Constitution expressly forbids a tax or duty on exports.
What I think is probably more likely is this:
The IEEPA gives the President the power to "regulate" importation or exportation. if you interpret "regulate" to mean the President has the power to tariff imports then that would necessarily mean the President has the power to tariff exports. In that case, the IEEPA would be unconstitutional because the Constitution expressly forbids a tax or duty on exports.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:07 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
That waiver, like the IEEPA argument, was in conjunction with a national emergency (
Well the Biden case involved an actual emergency, yes. This Trump case doesn't, but that's another discussion.
quote:
That was the basis of waiver
The emergency is the basis of the tariffs, too.
quote:
and it was when Potatobrain & Co attempted play games with "emergency" in order to make the waiver permanent, they got shot down.
That's not an accurate description of the case.
Their policies were attacked with the literal same reasoning/rhetoric as this tariff case. As I told you, the Major Question Doctrine is going to be the likely avenue that kills these tariffs, as it killed Biden's SL forgiveness.
Look at this summary of Biden v. Nebraska and see how simiarly it tracks this IEEPA-tariff case.
quote:
Vast Economic and Political Significance: The Court determined that a program canceling roughly $430 billion in debt for 43 million borrowers was an issue of "vast 'economic and political significance'". The economic impact was found to be nearly ten times greater than the $50 billion threshold considered significant in a prior case.
Lack of Clear Congressional Authorization: The administration based its program on the Higher Education Relief Opportunities for Students (HEROES) Act of 2003, which authorizes the Secretary of Education to "waive or modify" federal student aid loan program terms during a national emergency. The Court, in a 6-3 decision, found that the power to "waive or modify" did not grant the authority to create an entirely new, comprehensive loan cancellation program that would fundamentally rewrite the existing statute.
Past Agency Practice: The Court noted that previous uses of the HEROES Act authority were "extremely modest and narrow in scope," primarily involving minor, procedural modifications and payment suspensions during the COVID-19 pandemic. This lack of past practice for such a large-scale program further indicated that Congress had not intended to delegate this power through the general "waive or modify" language.
Separation of Powers: The Court emphasized that decisions of such magnitude must rest with Congress itself, the representative body entrusted with the power of the purse, rather than the executive branch or an administrative agency.
Vast Economic and Political Significance? Check.
Lack of Clear Congressional Authorization? Check. Even you admit you're trying to Pidgeon-hole these tariffs into broad language, not "clear" authorization.
Past Agency Practice? Check (no other admin has attempted to use the IEEPA to create tariffs)
Separation of Powers? Check. Enacting tariffs is the role of Congress, not the President.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:08 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
How so?
The SAVE plan that introduced workarounds that was also struck down by the federal courts.
Except that allowed him to run with it through the end of his term before it made its way through the courts.
And also using the Higher Education Act of 1965.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:08 am to JimEverett
quote:
Is he considering that any power Congress grants the President to tariff is unconstitutional? That would be wild, and I do not think that is where he is going.
quote:
The IEEPA gives the President the power to "regulate" importation or exportation. if you interpret "regulate" to mean the President has the power to tariff imports then that would necessarily mean the President has the power to tariff exports. In that case, the IEEPA would be unconstitutional because the Constitution expressly forbids a tax or duty on exports.
It's not about constitutionality. It's just that he's exceeding the legislative authority granted by Congress in violation of the Major Question Doctrine, primarily. Just like Biden's SL scheme via the HEROES Act.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:08 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
There is no text within the statute reflecting your words above.
No shite there's nothing in the statute because Roberts wiped Obama's arse like you would a minority struggling in school and gave him a curve from an F to an A+. You do understand the statute was codified AFTER Scotus' ruling on ACA and not before?
quote:
His admin made that argument at oral arguments. There is no text within the statute reflecting your words above.
And arguments at oral arguments aren't worth anything.
You are so completely full of shite. You are just throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks and try to maneuver out of this. I've become stupider for having read whatever gibberish you're trying to make stick as a red herring.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:09 am to Padme
quote:Obamacare was passed by Congress. Trump's tariffs are enacted by executive action. The question is, does Congress have the ability to cede it's power to the executive branch. Completely diffrent constitutional question than Sebilius.
So for Obama care, he said it could survive as a tax, but for Trump, he wants to argue since it’s a tax on Americans, Trump can’t impose?
EDIT: Didn't realize this was 12 pages deep. Likely already coverd. Srry
This post was edited on 11/6/25 at 8:11 am
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:10 am to CleverUserName
quote:
The SAVE plan that introduced workarounds that was also struck down by the federal courts.
Except that allowed him to run with it through the end of his term before it made its way through the courts.
And also using the Higher Education Act of 1965.
Just like how the Trump admin will try the various tariff statutes if they lose this one. Same shite.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:11 am to SippyCup
quote:
It’s not a tariff, it’s a penalty for unfair trade.
Be careful. Roberts will say that it "may" be seen as a tax.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:12 am to FizzyPop
quote:
No shite t
Ok so you give up this argument?
quote:
there's nothing in the statute because Roberts wiped Obama's arse like you would a minority struggling in school and gave him a curve from an F to an A+. You do understand the statute was codified AFTER Scotus' ruling on ACA and not before?
Oh, I guess not
quote:
You are so completely full of shite.
You say this in response to me stating 100% factual information
quote:
You are just throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks and try to maneuver out of this.
No. That would be this:
quote:
because Roberts wiped Obama's arse like you would a minority struggling in school and gave him a curve from an F to an A+.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:13 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Not related to an emergency!!!
canceling roughly $430 billion in debt for 43 million borrowers
Suspension of debt during CV19 was okay. Suspension of debt afterward, or cancelling it altogether was not. The latter was the trigger for the Lack of Clear Congressional Authorization, etc.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:15 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Not related to an emergency!!!
a. Covid
b. That distinction is literally not at issue, and would hurt Trump's argument worse (as Covid was clearly more of an emergency than what Trump is claiming
Why did you ignore the actual analysis and focus on irrelevancy that nobody is arguing?
quote:
Suspension of debt during CV19 was okay. Suspension of debt afterward, or cancelling it altogether was not. T
A distinction without a difference.
quote:
The latter was the trigger for the Lack of Clear Congressional Authorization, etc.
You're wrong. I literally just cited you the analysis. Where in there is the temporary argument you're making?
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's not about constitutionality. It's just that he's exceeding the legislative authority granted by Congress in violation of the Major Question Doctrine, primarily. Just like Biden's SL scheme via the HEROES Act.
I agree that the ultimate issue is whether the President has exceeded the authority granted by Congress. But I do not understand the exploration of the "is it a tax?" issue.
Congress cannot tax exports. If it grants the President power to "regulate" importation and exportation, then (assuming tariffs are a tax) that power to "regulate" cannot include the power to tariff because to do so would render the IEEPA unconstitutional because the Constitution expressly forbids taxes on exports.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Focus.
Not related to an emergency!!!
a. Covid
CV19 was the basis for suspension of debt payments.
Dementia-in-chief only got slapped down when he attempted to cancel the debt altogether, and when he did so with CV19 no longer a (emergency) factor.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:22 am to JimEverett
quote:
But I do not understand the exploration of the "is it a tax?" issue.
I believe its that the Executive cannot create a tax, and the Trump admin created tariffs. So are those tariffs tax mechanisms? I think that's the distinction (I didn't listen to the oral arguments and I haven't read the briefs or read media about this other than a couple tweets posted yesterday during OA).
The admin pivoted HARD yesterday and finally settled on a goal of tariffs, finally, with Bessent stating they are not a replacement for income tax (killing that promoted goal) and were instituted for bringing manufacturing back.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:22 am to GeorgePaton
quote:
But make no mistake if President Trump loses this SCOTUs ruling on Tariff's I shutter to think what will happen.
I can't believe this. It's like the whole nation is living in a fantacy, completely oblivious to the effects of this disaster that awaits us from this $ 37 trillion dollar deficit demon.
The democrats have stolen everything, and now they want more.
Whether it involves a family budget or a government treasury, if you spend more than you take in eventually you will max out the credit cards and then..........
My poor grandchildren.
First of all, Trump has no problem adding to that debt (and it's debt, not deficit. Deficit is the amount we're short each year. Debt is the accumulated shortfall we owe.). So if you want to lower the debt, Trump is not your guy.
Secondly, if you want to prioritize paying down the debt, just raise normal taxes. You don't have to tax via a tariff. Just raise income taxes. It's the same thing.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:24 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
CV19 was the basis for suspension of debt payments.
Dementia-in-chief only got slapped down when he attempted to cancel the debt altogether, and when he did so with CV19 no longer a (emergency) facto
You keep repeating this after I've told you multiple times that it was not a relevant or impactful argument in that case.
Here is text of the ruling. Quote me the language that supports your argument or drop it.
quote:
This Court has never drawn the line the Secretary suggests—and for good reason. Among Congress’s most important authorities is its control of the purse. U. S. Const., Art. I, §9, cl. 7; see also Office of Personnel Management v. Richmond, 496 U. S. 414, 427 (1990) (the Appropriations Clause is “a most useful and salutary check upon profusion and extravagance” (internal quotation marks omitted)). It would be odd to think that separation of powers concerns evaporate simply because the Government is providing monetary benefits rather than imposing obligations. As we observed in West Virginia, experience shows that major questions cases “have arisen from all corners of the administrative state,” and administrative action resulting in the conferral of benefits is no exception to that rule. 597 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 17). In King v. Burwell, 576 U. S. 473 (2015), we declined to defer to the Internal Revenue Service’s interpretation of a healthcare statute, explaining that the provision at issue affected “billions of dollars of spending each year and . . . the price of health insurance for millions of people.” Id., at 485. Because the interpretation of the provision was “a question of deep ‘economic and political significance’ that is central to [the] statutory scheme,” we said, we would not assume that Congress entrusted that task to an agency without a clear statement to that effect. Ibid. (quoting Utility Air, 573 U. S., at 324). That the statute at issue involved government benefits made no difference in King, and it makes no difference here.
All this leads us to conclude that “[t]he basic and consequential tradeoffs” inherent in a mass debt cancellation program “are ones that Congress would likely have intended for itself.” West Virginia, 597 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 26). In such circumstances, we have required the Secretary to “point to ‘clear congressional authorization’ ” to justify the challenged program. Id., at ___, ___ (slip op., at 19, 28) (quoting Utility Air, 573 U. S., at 324). And as we have already shown, the HEROES Act provides no authorization for the Secretary’s plan even when examined using the ordinary tools of statutory interpretation—let alone “clear congressional authorization” for such a program.9
It has become a disturbing feature of some recent opinions to criticize the decisions with which they disagree as going beyond the proper role of the judiciary. Today, we have concluded that an instrumentality created by Missouri, governed by Missouri, and answerable to Missouri is indeed part of Missouri; that the words “waive or modify” do not mean “completely rewrite”; and that our precedent—old and new—requires that Congress speak clearly before a Department Secretary can unilaterally alter large sections of the American economy. We have employed the traditional tools of judicial decisionmaking in doing so. Reasonable minds may disagree with our analysis—in fact, at least three do. See post, p. ___ (Kagan, J., dissenting). We do not mistake this plainly heartfelt disagreement for disparagement. It is important that the public not be misled either. Any such misperception would be harmful to this institution and our country.
This post was edited on 11/6/25 at 8:26 am
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:24 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Ok so you give up this argument?
I feel sorry for you, but I appreciate getting an insight into how a Leftist brain works. You somehow convinced yourself that the only time the "No Tax on anything related to ACA" issue came up was at oral arguments in front of Scotus
The entire ACA (hell even from the jump when it was called PPACA) was centered around No Tax to the American people. Congress went into session and both houses approved as No Tax. Even the House who controls the purse strings voted to fund because it was NO TAX.
Again, thanks for giving me an insight in the Leftist brain and how facts be damned with your lot, it's all about interpreting and bending the rules to your ideology and revisionist history m.o.
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:24 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Cancellation of debt is a permanent action. Emergency can not reasonably be presumed as permanent. Therefore cancellation across the board was not allowed.
Where in there is the temporary argument you're making?
Posted on 11/6/25 at 8:25 am to Padme
They're not doing to rule against tarriffs, so relax.
Well, the three morons will, but the other 6 will side with sanity.
Well, the three morons will, but the other 6 will side with sanity.
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